Amsoil TBN versus M1 / RP in ASTM D2896 Testing

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Arguments over brands, the thick versus thin debate, these are the staple of BITOG discussions probably going back to the beginning.

It's only because it's not a "Shelf" oil that folks have a problem with it. Heaven forbid there be anything better out there that isn't sold the conventional way. (not aimed at you, just touching on your point)

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by TiredTrucker
Originally Posted by BigShug681
My favorite argument for why people hate amsoil is the "they don't tell you what base stock they use" which suddenly makes them shady. Seems like a lot of folks trust valvolines fully synthetic claim but can't trust Amsoil's 100% synthetic...


Those that argue that Amsoil doesn't tell you what they use just aren't looking. if one watches some of Amsoil's corporate videos they will see Mobil, Lubrizol, Infineum, etc brand labeled containers.

Yeah, Shannow, I remember reading that several years ago. It would seem on the Amsoil test that there was something going on to cause that oil to go black at 8000 miles in that engine. I have run various oils, including Amsoil, to over 8000 miles in gasoline engines and never had it turn black. Something was causing a high level of soot to be generated in that engine.

Can't comment on second link, as browser is unable to load that page for some reason.


I have over 8K miles (not kilometers) on my current fill of 5w20 Signature Series and it's just starting to change colour now form the amber clear on the dipstick. On top of that the links Shannow provided are comparing it from 14 years ago. The formula has changed since then twice.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by demarpaint
This is true, but with the rebates that happen a lot over the year from Mobil and Pennzoil, I can get oil as good or better, for less. And if I deal with Walmart and spend $35 or more have it delivered to my house free. What's not to like?


We don't get the same rebates you do, we do get sales but they aren't as killer as yours or I would use a shelf oil, I have been clear about that before (not aimed at you, just for the group). We also don't get oil delivered to our house through Amazon or Walmart (at least not in Ontario). Although Walmart was delivering cases of M1 on Black Friday here for some reason. Normally it's not possible.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by BigShug681
Originally Posted by Shannow
Originally Posted by BigShug681
My favorite argument for why people hate amsoil is the "they don't tell you what base stock they use" which suddenly makes them shady. Seems like a lot of folks trust valvolines fully synthetic claim but can't trust Amsoil's 100% synthetic...


No...

what I say is that by refusing the "cheap as dirt" API certification, amsoil therefore don't have to re-test when they change base-stocks...they can buy whatever they want, at the cheapest price, and sell their refusal as refusing to be "neutered"...a certificated oil HAS to abide by the base oil interchange rules...amsoil doesn't.

But the drinkers of the koolaid swallow it hook line and sinker.

I mean this argument only holds true with SS, The OE and XL are both API certified. Redline, I believe, is not API certified along with a few other oils and yet hardly any one ever goes nuclear as if though someone's choice of oil actually hurt them in some way. If you don't like amsoil that's fine but why do you attack the people who do? It's literally just oil, you chose the oil you like and I chose mine but because I like amsoil that automatically makes me stupid? Only you say it in a passive aggressive way. Maybe you shouldn't let what other people like bother you so much and just use your oil of choice and just be happy.

What gets me is the bashing that goes on yet none of these turkey's can provide proof where it didn't live up to what was claimed. Heck we have lots of UOA's here after many miles with bypass and non-bypass setups showing the lubricant is holding up. We even have high mileage engines here run on Amsoil. Yet the bashing continues. What's even worse is the company is a true American Icon of a story, with all the offshoring going on you would think this would hold some weight as well.

I mean 40 years of ever increasing sales and being a great employer to the folks in Wisconsin and that just gets tossed to the side because these folks "choose" not to like their marketing and "choose" to bash it because of "Insert Excuse Here" oh and because they use MLM instead of traditional distribution models. That's just insane IMO and really shows the ridiculousness of some folks here.

Not saying anyone should use it or buy it, but stop with the nonsense and bashing for no legitimate substantiated reason. Like constantly bringing up the 4-ball wear test as their main test which it isn't and using 14 year old comparison links that are flawed and not proper lab controlled and proper sample sizes.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by demarpaint
This is true, but with the rebates that happen a lot over the year from Mobil and Pennzoil, I can get oil as good or better, for less. And if I deal with Walmart and spend $35 or more have it delivered to my house free. What's not to like?


We don't get the same rebates you do, we do get sales but they aren't as killer as yours or I would use a shelf oil, I have been clear about that before (not aimed at you, just for the group). We also don't get oil delivered to our house through Amazon or Walmart (at least not in Ontario). Although Walmart was delivering cases of M1 on Black Friday here for some reason. Normally it's not possible.

God Bless America!

 

[StevieC]

Right?

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted by FlyNavyP3
Starting TBN isn't the only factor either, TBN retention is. M1 AP doesn't have a super high TBN but if it decays at a slower rate than the AMSOIL it could potentially be serviceable just as long.

Not bashing AMSOIL here, just stating that starting TBN isn't the end all be all, if it was we'd be running lube meant for bunker fueled engines with a starting TBN of 50.


EXACTLY! Amsoil is twisting the data for marketing. I don't use Amsoil for their marketing tactics alone.

 

[buster]

Actually they don't meet it. It's over 1.0 per their tech department. LOL

And again they are cherry picking data and leaving out significant context.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by buster
Actually they don't meet it. It's over 1.0 per their tech department. LOL

And again they are cherry picking data and leaving out significant context.

Really? As found on page 4 here: https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf

 

[deven]

One can also spruce up the TBN by using an oil additive such as BG MOA that has over 10,000ppm of Calcium.

 

[buster]

Yes really. They are not on the approval list because the detergent levels exceed d1G2 levels.

I don't think you understand, lower SA is what they are after not higher. You can make it higher if you choose.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by buster
Yes really. They are not on the approval list because the detergent levels exceed d1G2 levels.

I don't think you understand, lower SA is what they are after not higher. You can make it higher if you choose.


No they aren't on the list because they chose not to pay for the test as confirmed by the e-mail I posted here not because they don't meet the requirement as they claim in what I posted above.

 

[buster]

That's bs. They are not on the list bc the SA is too high. Why do they pay for the other oils then?

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by buster
That's bs. They are not on the list bc the SA is too high. Why do they pay for the other oils then?

I have an e-mail posted here... What do you have but your conjecture?

EDIT: Here is a copy of the e-mail. Feel free to e-mail them to verify.
Quote
Steven,

No we are not on the list because you have to pay to be on the list and we just don't do that. With that being said we do meet all the specs.


Have a great day, and please let me know if you have any further questions.




Nick Amey

Technical Service Representative



AMSOIL Inc.
ADDRESS:1 AMSOIL Center, Superior Wi 54880
E-MAIL: [email protected]
PHONE 715-392-7101 EXT.6020
FAX 715-399-6551

 

[JLTD]

I like Amsoil pretty well so far, but I have to agree that since Mr Amatuzio passed away, their advertising has become a bit obnoxious...didn't know about the diesel anti-gelling treatment situation(for example) and it seems like since Al left us some integrity has been lost.

As far as source of oil I don't think it makes a difference from whom Amsoil buys their base stocks....

I still think that in a short run, wear indicators with Amsoil would be the same as any other decent oil. Where it shines is in extended drains ---and that comes with a "maybe" depending on usage and engine.

Edit: If I were the owner of a small ol blender I don't think I would be shelling out the cash for certifications; IMO Amsoil has proven over time to be a very good oil. Whether any additional cost is worth it is a decision each person must make for themselves.

 

[TiredTrucker]

As an aside, Schaeffer is a well respected oil blender yet it doesn't go around looking for all the certs either. Probably because they cater more to fleet/commercial entities. They make the same claims of meeting stuff like the dexos1 spec, but are not on the actual "approved" list. Now why Amsoil doesn't go after the certs, I can't say. They are more consumer than commercial oriented. It could be a volume numbers game as to why. The big name shelf oils can spread the cost of certs across the higher volume.

 

[buster]

Once again, ask Amsoil to provide the SA level of the SS oils, then look at what GM d1G2 requires. Their email means nothing to me.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by buster
Once again, ask Amsoil to provide the SA level of the SS oils, then look at what GM d1G2 requires. Their email means nothing to me.

You don't even need to ask, Amsoil says why on their SS data sheet:

Quote
Fortified with detergents that exceed the dexos 1 Gen 2 sulfated ash specification.

Which effectively negates their recommendation to use the oil in applications that require the specification. Notice how they use the word "fortified" and "detergents" to appear like that is a good thing, when in fact it only means it does not meet the specification.

Once there was a time and a place for boutique oil producers to make an effective argument that their oils were "too good" to obtain actual approvals and specifications, but such a time and place no longer exists. There are too many very tough and effective specs and approvals now for this to be still relevant. And the old argument that it costs too much money is clearly not true when people on here post the actual certification costs. It has become an anachronism which caters only to those individuals that still believe the marketing over what would be demonstrated performance via actual approvals.

And this isn't just Amsoil. The others that stubbornly cling to the old mystique and wink of the secret club of uncertified oils are also included. Time has moved on and there are numerous competitors now, and most of them have the certifications to prove it - usually for a lot less money.

 

[buster]

EXACTLY we have a winner here.

I was waiting to see if Stevie caught on.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by buster
I was waiting to see if Stevie caught on.

There have been at least two previous threads with posts on this exact subject, and he's been a part of them both. Why it is a mystery in this thread I'm not sure.

The email that was posted from Nick Amey is just flat wrong. It does not meet the specification.