Alaska Airlines AS1282 door blow out!
- Thread starter edyvw
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The passengers on Air France 447 might disagree with your perspective.
MolaKule
Staff member
I think Spirit Aerospace also has some "Splainin' " to do for the NTSB and the FAA.
Boeing is ultimately responsible for the actions of their subcontractors.
One news outlet called it VAST hole.
FWIW: I'm not sure they are on the hook for anything as the standard procedure was for Boeing to final torque those bolts?
not that I think that was a good idea (in fact I said the opposite earlier)
After reading through both, it’s clear my memory was off by a bit, and that this Aloha airlines flight was more challenging than I first thought. The reason the flaps were full in the photo is because that is a first step for evacuation, and that was done after landing.
The 737 in question failed because of poor maintenance by Aloha. The airplane had been in service for twice its design life. Twice.
When established on final to Maui, they had the no. 1 engine fail.
Big difference as pointed out by @Just a civilian pilot - the 737 had enough power to stay in the air on one engine because they were light, and below landing weight, while the 747 didn’t have that luxury, as it was more than 200,000 pounds over landing weight.
Further, the 747 had over a hundred miles to go from engine failure to landing, while the 737 had the engine fail while on final, a few miles out. Very different energy and vertical profiles.
Both airplanes landed partial flaps. For similar reasons - they felt handling discrepancies when the flaps were being extended. In the case of UAL 811, they noted asymmetric extension of the leading edge and trailing edge devices and post flight examination revealed extensive damage to the leading edge of the right wing.
Both correctly, properly, elected to stop flap extension before the handling qualities degraded further, risking loss of control due to asymmetric extension or unusual airflow around damaged surfaces.
UAL 811 was able to make the landing on 8L, the long runway at HNL, so, I was in error about the short runway part, but the landing speed was near 200 knots, which wasn’t mentioned in the NTSB report, but was discussed by the crew in subsequent interviews.
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Thanks for correcting me.
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The definition of “gaping” is “ very large “. It is subject to a person’s perspective, such as “ the passenger was sucked out through a gaping hole.”
The rest is semantics. Sure it was a engineered potential exit. At cruising speed and elevation and with the door plug missing, it’s a gaping hole. Especially if you are sitting beside it. Enough said.
The rest is semantics. Sure it was a engineered potential exit. At cruising speed and elevation and with the door plug missing, it’s a gaping hole. Especially if you are sitting beside it. Enough said.
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The problem with AF 447 was the flight crew didn't know how to fly! This tragedy wouldn't have happened had real pilots like @Astro14 been in the cockpit. The reader will find out why I said that.
Scott
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash
The latest news is the cockpit door was designed to open during rapid decompression.
But Boeing never told anyone.
I'd like to know how a seat can be allowed near the trouble door that blew out?
But Boeing never told anyone.
I'd like to know how a seat can be allowed near the trouble door that blew out?
Whether the hole was large, small, "gaping" or otherwise, its all relative isnt it, until the enormity of the consequences of its existence rears its head. I'd say the consequences of this hole are certainly large and gaping. I despise the media for most things but I dont fault them one bit for using the word. If this had happened 20 minutes later anyone sitting unbuckled in that row at 35,000 at 480 kts probably would have gone skydiving, and anyone who didnt get on oxygen in a big **** hurry wouldnt be conscience or alive long enough to complain about the -50F air temperature or how bland those mandatory Biscoff sugar cookies are.
The actual hole punched into the hull of Titanic by the iceberg is estimated to be only 10-12 square feet. Pretty small for an 800 foot long monster that displaced 52,000 tons, but look what happened as a result. A twelve square foot hole in the windshield up on the bridge is a moderate hole, that same hole 20 feet below the water line is a gaping hole. I think the same principle applies here.
Tomato, tomahto, whatever.
If the last work order involving that plug door had my signature on it, my septic tank would be begging for mercy and I'd be putting every lawyer in the county on retainer. I cant imagine what is going on at Boeing right now.
I had the misfortune of landing a few days after the Aloha flight had landed and I snapped a blurry picture of it sitting on the tarmac as we roared past. I'll have to find that. Even partially covered with a tarp that was one scary sight.
The actual hole punched into the hull of Titanic by the iceberg is estimated to be only 10-12 square feet. Pretty small for an 800 foot long monster that displaced 52,000 tons, but look what happened as a result. A twelve square foot hole in the windshield up on the bridge is a moderate hole, that same hole 20 feet below the water line is a gaping hole. I think the same principle applies here.
Tomato, tomahto, whatever.
If the last work order involving that plug door had my signature on it, my septic tank would be begging for mercy and I'd be putting every lawyer in the county on retainer. I cant imagine what is going on at Boeing right now.
I had the misfortune of landing a few days after the Aloha flight had landed and I snapped a blurry picture of it sitting on the tarmac as we roared past. I'll have to find that. Even partially covered with a tarp that was one scary sight.
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It’s mentioned in the Airbus FCOM pilot manual.
CDLS ( cockpit door locking system ) opens , automatically, if the cabin loses pressurization.
As is often the case, it was a bit more than just pilot error. The airplane had a poor pitot probe design. Airbus had updated the design, and issued a new part, but AF had not yet installed it, about a year later. They encountered icing, which caused a loss of good airspeed data (due to the faulty probe icing up). When faced with unreliable data - the airplane went from normal flight control logic, into a backup mode known as “alternate law”. Not easy to see the subtle differences between normal and alternate law, the ways the display is designed, and particularly with loud overspeed warnings going off (the airplane was not overspeeding, but iced up probes give bad results).
The very inexperienced FO responded as he was trained, but that training was predicated on normal law, and the airplane was in alternate law. Late at night, in the dark, in clouds, when tired, and faced with something he had never seen, and a threat to his very existence, he sank to his level of training - and applied the wrong control inputs.
All the way to impact.
A preventable tragedy - if only Airbus had made the airplane less susceptible to icing, if only Air France had installed the updated parts, if only Air France had done better training, if only hiring standards required more experience before flying passengers, and yes, if only this kid had recognized the stall for what it was.
The real expert on Airbus is @Just a civilian pilot - I flew the A-320 for about six years, and I have a fraction of the experience he has.
But to your point - this was a matter of pilot error - of startle response, in particular - and that is something that could have been better addressed through training and experience.
There is an old saying: that good judgement comes from experience. And experience comes from bad judgement.
I once had the pitot probes ice up when flying the F-14. Late at night. Dark. In icing. Airspeed went to zero. I paused, analyzed, and without changing pitch, or power, or trim, because the airplane had been flying a second or two prior, and nothing else, but that indicator had changed…I asked my RIO “What’s your airspeed?” He replied “zero”. I said, “That doesn’t make sense, we were doing 300 knots a second ago, and I didn’t change anything.” “Yeah, IRS groundspeed shows 350” he said. “Well, let‘s see what happens when we fly out of this rain storm” I said.
Airspeed came back. So, problem solved. We were still at 300 knots.
Not every human being responds to stress, to startle, the same way. Better training reduces the startle response, and the amygdala hijack that happens in about 15 milliseconds (yes, milliseconds) and the resulting loss of cognitive ability, fine motor skills, and frontal cortex processes in favor of the basic fight or flight response. Heart rate, oxygenation and muscle strength increase, while cognitive ability and problem solving decline.
Great response for fighting a Saber Tooth tiger, not so good in a complex, technical environment like an airplane cockpit.
We spend a lot of time introducing unexpected events in the simulator, to include unreliable airspeed - the better to train out the startle and allow pilots to develop the skills in managing the unexpected scenarios like Air France faced on that night.
I don’t fault the pilot flying on this event, even though he made a mistake that killed him and everyone else, because he responded as people do under stress, instead, I fault a system that failed to train him adequately, and that failed to provide him the experience necessary to avoid a startle response.
Yes, that one I would absolutely call a GAPING hole. I watched the Mayday Air Disaster of that one. It was an incredible story, but tragic that it happened.
There seem to be a lot fewer Airbus planes with the Canadian airlines that we fly. My wife and I are going to Bonaire in February with Westjet and it looks like it's all 737-700 going there. I do have more confidence in the older 737NG than any of the Max planes so far.
I've only flown a handful of times, a couple 737 800, a 737 max 8 last year and an Airbus of some kind many years ago on Jets Go. That airline went under about a month after we flew it.
MolaKule
Staff member
I don't know who these whistle blowers are but this is how it's done.
737 Fuselages are built in Wichita Kansas by Spirit Aerospace, the company Boeing sold one of its manufacturing facilities to.
Commercial Programs | Commercial | Spirit AeroSystems
Spirit AeroSystems is one of the largest non-OEM manufacturers in the world and delivers major aircraft components to Airbus, Boeing, Sikorsky and more.
www.spiritaero.com
The fuselages are shipped by rail to Renton, Washington where the final assembly takes place. There they go through final inspection and test. An FAA rep or DER does the final inspection and if any exceptions are noted, a later shift attends to those exceptions. After the FAA rep or DER is satisfied, then a shake-out test flight is done with engineers on board. Any further exceptions are noted and the FAA rep or DER only signs off after those further exceptions are corrected.
JMHO, many, but not all, so-called whistle blowers are usually dissatisfied and incompetent people that Boeing should have fired long ago but because of Union rules, could not be.
Please note carefully,
Commercial Programs | Commercial | Spirit AeroSystems
Spirit AeroSystems is one of the largest non-OEM manufacturers in the world and delivers major aircraft components to Airbus, Boeing, Sikorsky and more.
www.spiritaero.com
This group also makes Airbus and Bombardier fuselages and components.
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I looked up the definition before making my original comment. Maybe semantics but the word large has to be in relative to something. In my mind, this would be in relation to the aircraft that the hole became a part of. Therefore I don't consider it a gaping hole at all. I guess you are relating it to a hole that doesn't exist or a tiny hole?
It's probably because of my line of work, I'm in land surveying. We have to be extremely accurate in everything we do, and everything we measure is relative to something, which is the word you used in your first sentence, except I don't think you're thinking in relative terms at all. Yes this is a stupid thing to argue about. I should have kept my comments about the media wording to myself.
MolaKule
Staff member
For those interested, and to keep the information factual, the Aloha Airlines 737-200 failure was on flight 243 and the information from the NTSB can by found by Googling NTSB/AAR-89/03.
Here's a Summary:
A "cold bond" "Lap Splice" was found to deteriorate in humid and salty areas of aircraft operation.
Boeing issued a Service Bulletin (Body Skin Joint Lap and Repair) on July 19, 1972, describing the inspection process, the exact location of the problem area, the materials to be used for repair, and a list of vendors for repair supplies to every operator as required by the FAA.
It was never determined if Aloha had ever done these inspections and or proper repairs to this aged aircraft that had the decompression failure on April 28th, 1988.
Again, the Flight Crew did a fantastic job of getting it on the ground and the plane held together because of Boeing engineering.
Here's a Summary:
A "cold bond" "Lap Splice" was found to deteriorate in humid and salty areas of aircraft operation.
Boeing issued a Service Bulletin (Body Skin Joint Lap and Repair) on July 19, 1972, describing the inspection process, the exact location of the problem area, the materials to be used for repair, and a list of vendors for repair supplies to every operator as required by the FAA.
It was never determined if Aloha had ever done these inspections and or proper repairs to this aged aircraft that had the decompression failure on April 28th, 1988.
Again, the Flight Crew did a fantastic job of getting it on the ground and the plane held together because of Boeing engineering.
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@ Bill7
When I worked Boeing 787 final delivery line in Charleston it was just as you stated. However jobs weren’t overlooked and certainly not safety items. If the jobs couldn’t be completed prior to acft move on work line or work station those jobs were labeled traveler jobs and were placed in a folder (accordion type) and sent down the line. Most of the time they all came to us on final delivery. There were hundreds most of the time. But every one was completed prior to customer delivery.
When I worked Boeing 787 final delivery line in Charleston it was just as you stated. However jobs weren’t overlooked and certainly not safety items. If the jobs couldn’t be completed prior to acft move on work line or work station those jobs were labeled traveler jobs and were placed in a folder (accordion type) and sent down the line. Most of the time they all came to us on final delivery. There were hundreds most of the time. But every one was completed prior to customer delivery.
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