AIM-54 Phoenix Missile. Was it really any good?

[Tikka]

Hi.
As we have a community of F14 Tomcat enthusiasts on the Forum, i thought i would post another Vid for those who may have missed it. Apologies if you have already seen it.

There has been some debate, as to how effective the AGM-54 Missile really was and how it would have performed in a real shooting war.

It would seem it performed admirably.



This is pretty impressive stuff. Remember this is the Iranian Air Force. No backup from America,

Now imagine the F14, fully and correctly maintained and supported by Grumman. The Missile, supported by Hughes with constant upgrades. All these flown by Tier One US Navy Pilots. I think it is fair to say it would have served its purpose with distinction.

Interesting talk at the beginning of how the the Demo Pilot essentially won the Iranian contract.

 

[y_p_w]

I remember reading about the shelf life of the thermal batteries for the Phoenix, where Iran was looking to buy them to replace the ones that had expired. But it seemed kind of weird that they could be purchased since there was only one purpose for them and one manufacturer. I would have thought that the only way they got bought and sold was directly between the manufacturer and the DoD. That and all those other spare parts for the Tomcat that they bought on the black market. Again, how the heck does any of this get out unless there's someone on the inside making an illegal sale or someone stealing the spare parts?

 

[Wolf359]

I remember reading about the shelf life of the thermal batteries for the Phoenix, where Iran was looking to buy them to replace the ones that had expired. But it seemed kind of weird that they could be purchased since there was only one purpose for them and one manufacturer. I would have thought that the only way they got bought and sold was directly between the manufacturer and the DoD. That and all those other spare parts for the Tomcat that they bought on the black market. Again, how the heck does any of this get out unless there's someone on the inside making an illegal sale or someone stealing the spare parts?

If you read about it, a lot of it was shell companies, they'd ship it to some country and then it would get reshipped to Iran. And yes, people will do anything for a buck, they certainly didn't pay list price for the stuff but any price was better than nothing. Still pretty amazing that they've managed to keep them flying and it's been over 40 years. Although I suppose maybe not too surprising if you consider than they planning for the B-52 to fly 90+ years.

 

[y_p_w]

If you read about it, a lot of it was shell companies, they'd ship it to some country and then it would get reshipped to Iran. And yes, people will do anything for a buck, they certainly didn't pay list price for the stuff but any price was better than nothing. Still pretty amazing that they've managed to keep them flying and it's been over 40 years. Although I suppose maybe not too surprising if you consider than they planning for the B-52 to fly 90+ years.

It does seem a bit weird though since there was one manufacturer and one legitimate buyer. How there would ever be a middleman seems just bizarre given the national security implications of the product being sold.

I have heard about oddball stuff like a story about a couple of guys in their early 20s who became huge defense buyers/sellers dealing with the DoD running it out of an apartment. What finally got them was when they landed a massive contract to supply the Afghan military, but where the contract terms said that none of it was allowed to come from China. But their supplier sold them all of this ammo from China even though their purchase terms included that Chinese product was not acceptable. They panicked and just repackaged it in generic looking boxes and represented it as coming from somewhere else - until they got caught.

U.S. military suspends Afghanistan ammunition deal

A Florida company hired by the Pentagon to supply ammunition to Afghan soldiers sent the troops Chinese gun cartridges that were more than 40 years old, the U.S. military said in documents obtained by Reuters.

www.reuters.com

 

[2EHA]

I remember reading about the shelf life of the thermal batteries for the Phoenix, where Iran was looking to buy them to replace the ones that had expired. But it seemed kind of weird that they could be purchased since there was only one purpose for them and one manufacturer. I would have thought that the only way they got bought and sold was directly between the manufacturer and the DoD. That and all those other spare parts for the Tomcat that they bought on the black market. Again, how the heck does any of this get out unless there's someone on the inside making an illegal sale or someone stealing the spare parts?

they initially handed missiles over for hostages and it was the right thing to do.

Israel was without a doubt a major player in the long term. They make the impossible, possible

U.S. Cracks Ring Sending Stolen F-14 Parts to Iran

An international theft ring that diverted sophisticated U.S. military equipment to Iran operated within the Navy supply system for several years before coming under surveillance by federal investigators, government sources said Monday.

www.google.com

 

[DeepFriar]

I recall, I hope accurately, that the Navy had to conduct, at Congressional insistence, a full up test aganst six targets simultaneously guided by the onboard AWG radar before the program would be allowed to proceed. I believe that test was successful. I doubt there was ever a real world combat test as strenuous. Phoenix was a signal engineering accomplishment as was the whole Tomcat weapon system. Far ahead of its time. Like many other capabilities IMHO, over time we have frittered away many leads.

 

[y_p_w]

I recall, I hope accurately, that the Navy had to conduct, at Congressional insistence, a full up test aganst six targets simultaneously guided by the onboard AWG radar before the program would be allowed to proceed. I believe that test was successful. I doubt there was ever a real world combat test as strenuous. Phoenix was a signal engineering accomplishment as was the whole Tomcat weapon system. Far ahead of its time. Like many other capabilities IMHO, over time we have frittered away many leads.

My understanding was that there was never a real world situation where the US Navy ever really needed to use it. You know - the whole Soviet bombers and cruise missiles being the reason for its existence.

But right now the AMRAAM is pretty darn good. Not sure if there would be any reason for anything that big these days. The F-14 was designed around the Phoenix, but would it make any sense to design a new aircraft to use the equivalent?

 

[IndyFan]

My understanding was that there was never a real world situation where the US Navy ever really needed to use it. You know - the whole Soviet bombers and cruise missiles being the reason for its existence.

But right now the AMRAAM is pretty darn good. Not sure if there would be any reason for anything that big these days. The F-14 was designed around the Phoenix, but would it make any sense to design a new aircraft to use the equivalent?

If an enemy develops an air to air tanking capability it'd be nice to take that out. But then again, an F-35 or F-22 could theoretically sneak in there close enough for an Amraam shot or two.

Ever heard of the B-1 Romeo? It was a pretty cool concept. Put 4 F-22 engines in a B-22 and set it up for long range supercruise. It would also have an upgraded air to air radar. It would decimate large enemy formations and then F-22's would zoom in and pick off the survivors. The Bone-R could light up the burners and get the hell out of Dodge, if necessary, sustaining very high speeds for a long time. The concept had specified something over 100 Amraam missiles on board. Imagine that sucker with a hundred Phoenix missiles in it/on it!
I'd love to see them make an air to air missile slinging B-21 when it comes out. Maybe that's why the BOne-R didn't get off paper.

 

[y_p_w]

If an enemy develops an air to air tanking capability it'd be nice to take that out. But then again, an F-35 or F-22 could theoretically sneak in there close enough for an Amraam shot or two.

Ever heard of the B-1 Romeo? It was a pretty cool concept. Put 4 F-22 engines in a B-22 and set it up for long range supercruise. It would also have an upgraded air to air radar. It would decimate large enemy formations and then F-22's would zoom in and pick off the survivors. The Bone-R could light up the burners and get the hell out of Dodge, if necessary, sustaining very high speeds for a long time. The concept had specified something over 100 Amraam missiles on board. Imagine that sucker with a hundred Phoenix missiles in it/on it!
I'd love to see them make an air to air missile slinging B-21 when it comes out. Maybe that's why the BOne-R didn't get off paper.

Sure. I heard of it back in the 80s when I was still in high school. There was some mock-up composite photo showing what it could load, and it included Phoenix missiles. I'm trying to find that photo because I'm sure I've reposted it here for one reason or another.