'82 Ford 200 (3.3L) I6 - Front Main / Timing Cover

[WylieCoyote]

This one barrel is actually easy, if everything inside it is working right. First thing in the morning, punch it once, it fires right up, give it about 15 seconds to get itself together while the high idle slowly rises to about 1900, give it a gentle kick, it drops to around 1200, and let it warm up. I don't let it keep climbing...that's pretty noisy for 6:00 in the morning. It doesn't get much of a chance to warm up when leaving work, though, and the behavior is definitely different. You can tell it doesn't like being driven cold, but my '78 Monza bogged down the same way if you spurred it at too low an RPM before it was warm, so I just consider it to be the nature of the carbureted beast.

Everything was very normal until this week. This hard-starting, smoking, bad behavior is brand new. Can't wait to get this one resolved. I didn't buy it to look pretty in the driveway. ;-)

Ahh...the carb rebuild kit was delivered. LOL

 

[researcher]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Thanks for posting that link! I didn't know they offered that service, that could be helpful in future.


hey Trav! you're welcome! I had to do a double take when I realized it was the real Holley company offering that service. very cool!

Originally Posted By: WylieCoyote
Thanks, researcher. The new carb will be here on Monday, so we'll see how that goes. Gave everything a good look yesterday and it looks like a fairly easy replace. Just gotta be careful around those brittle old vacuum lines (the really small ones that I can't find replacements for).

Thanks for the Holley rebuild info. If this backfires (it may actually backfire, LOL) I may send mine off for a complete overhaul. The description of the unit I bought is promising, anyway.

Did one final startup yesterday afternoon just to see how badly it's behavior has deteriorated. Very hard to start, but once running, it smokes for a bit, clears up and acts as if nothing ever happened. Idles fine, and appears that it would drive fine. Left it home today, as I don't want to get stranded at work. Long wait til Monday. Going to avoid starting it again if I can help it. I think it gets worse every time I do.

Thanks again for your continued input.







hey wylie! yeah you're welcome for that Holley find! Too bad you were saying it's 6 week turnaround, wow they're busy!! But, if this new carb doesn't fix the problem then at least you'll have an option to know 100% that it IS fixed. Did they say what the price was to rebuild/repair?

and about the rpm's climbing.. I know on mine it would keep climbing to about 2000rpms, yes, loud for the neighbors, but I didn't care. If that thing didn't warm up it would cough/sputter/die out on the road. And good luck trying to restart it in traffic, ask me how I know.. lol.

Javacontour is right, they ARE picky but.. once everything was repaired (like the acc. pump diaphragm) and the choke adjusted correctly then it would start cold without a problem. Just getting to the point of fixing it was the not-so-fun part.

and Wylie, I wouldn't keep starting it. If it's running this rich then it could burn out your catalytic converter. That is what happened to me before as well.

hey look the rebuild kit showed up! well definitely keep it, you could always send it to Holley if they needed the kit. But ya, look what just showed up! lol
I do hope the reman carb is good quality, but at least you have an alternative! I'm glad I found that!

 

[researcher]

also.. I noticed they were only giving $25 for the core, to return it. I would not return your carb even if this one works well. Too hard to find this carb and a spare would be good to have, even if it needs to be rebuilt. Just a thought.

 

[researcher]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
Man, the carbs on these were problems when new. I've had a '78 and '79 in a Zephyr and Fairmont respectively. If you didn't follow the directions on the sun visor about cold start, they wouldn't run right when cold.

I don't know if anything changed by the 1980s, but I do know the two I've had were picky and you had to follow the procedure to the letter if you wanted to drive it cold.

IIRC, it was press the accelerator to the floor one time and then start it with no throttle. If you didn't do that, you didn't set the choke and it would stall as you tried to drive it.


hey Javacontour.. You got me thinking so I looked up the 79 Zephyr 3.3L carb and it is different than the 82 version. According to the rebuilder, Autoline they're different, same 1946 model but with changes.. take a look.

here's the 79 version
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1126392&cc=1204377

here's the 82 version
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1124987&cc=1196445

 

[WylieCoyote]

Hey researcher, I've decided I'm going to keep the old carb and use the rebuild kit to do it myself, on my own time, on my workbench after the car is back up and running with the new carb. I'm going to learn something from this by hook or by crook. LOL. I figure that even if it was tuned by the rebuilder, it's still going to need to be tuned to run my engine. I'm thinking about turning the screws all the way in on the old carb, and counting the terns until they bottom out, and then adjusting the new carb to match. You think that method will get me close?

 

[researcher]

Originally Posted By: WylieCoyote
Hey researcher, I've decided I'm going to keep the old carb and use the rebuild kit to do it myself, on my own time, on my workbench after the car is back up and running with the new carb. I'm going to learn something from this by hook or by crook. LOL. I figure that even if it was tuned by the rebuilder, it's still going to need to be tuned to run my engine. I'm thinking about turning the screws all the way in on the old carb, and counting the terns until they bottom out, and then adjusting the new carb to match. You think that method will get me close?


that's good news you'll keep your old carb, and yeah learn how to rebuilt it. You're right it would probably need a tweak or two to make it perfect for your engine. But, see how it runs with it set the way it is from the reman factory. Your idea is good, to count the screw turns from bottoming out and then duplicate that on this new unit. I think you should be pretty close to the adjustment. Curious to see how it runs out of the box, just wondering..

 

[WylieCoyote]

I was thinking about doing that but then worried about what might happen if it's set too lean. Possibility of damage? I've been trying to remember how the adjustments work since it's been years since I messed with my motorcycle carburetors. Is it in-lean, out-rich, or the opposite?

 

[researcher]

Originally Posted By: WylieCoyote
I was thinking about doing that but then worried about what might happen if it's set too lean. Possibility of damage? I've been trying to remember how the adjustments work since it's been years since I messed with my motorcycle carburetors. Is it in-lean, out-rich, or the opposite?


I can't remember which direction was lean or rich, sorry. But what I do remember was that I would slowly turn a little until I got the maximum idle rpm. Then I knew I was very close to getting the idle mixture correct. I think the shop said I was off by 1/4 turn, not bad for doing it by ear!

I don't think the temporary adjustment is going to fry anything lean or rich. The time is too short to really do any damage. Wish I could remember what each direction was.

I also remember it was within a small window of adjustment as to not really screw things up. I think the accelerator pump diaphragm dumping way too much fuel into the engine was really the cause of you running overly rich. Back then with mine, I didn't know what was causing the idle to buck/surge. So I adjusted the idle air mixture screw. It somewhat helped but then no matter what I did the idle got so bad I couldn't even hit the gas pedal, had to feather it to get to the shop. I know I'm repeating the story but my point is.. The leaking pump diaphragm had more to do with it running overly rich than that adjustment screw. And that's what definitely caused the catalytic to melt.

See what I mean? The adjustment screw is a fine-tune, so I don't think you'll damage anything. Just tweak it for the highest rpm you can achieve.

 

[WylieCoyote]

Thanks. What I'm finding online is to gently bottom it out, then back out 1.5 turns, and fine tune by rpm from there. This is the problem with the internet....I've now seen it explained both ways. One place says in-lean, out-rich, and another place says the opposite. I guess knowing that really isn't the point, it's just achieving the best running condition after backing it out 1.5, with a warm engine.

I'll be interested to see how the old carb is set. Maybe I'll get lucky and she'll run good straight out of the box.

I think I'll replace the fuel pump and the soft sections of the fuel line while I'm at it. My mechanic reminded me that it's entirely possible that the introduction of ethanol into that 36-year-old fuel line may have led to this problem. Might as well not introduce a bunch of dissolved rubber into a new carb.

 

[researcher]

I think your mechanic is 100% correct. And what's nice is that you can get ethanol-friendly fuel line today. And think of this too, that car didn't really sit in a vacuum for 36 years either. Since that engine was run since the 90s, it has had ethanol coursing through its fuel lines. I think you probably are the first driver who has really used it regularly like a normal car/daily driver.

EDIT: Forgot to add that I did replace the fuel pump on mine, it's not hard to do, just have to get that lobe from the crankshaft lined up just right so the fuel pump lever engages it. Make sure when you take it out to see how the lever is sitting. I got lucky when I took mine out, lobe wasn't too far up or down. Just letting ya know the tricks.

Plus glad you mentioned these issues here because here you found people with that exact engine right when yours failed and needed the help! So it all works out.

It'll be interesting to see if there is anything dissolved on the old carb when you take it apart, definitely update us on that!

I heard from a guy who drove those gasoline tankers you see filling up the gas station tanks. He said "you ever wonder why the tankers always look brand new?" I said "yeah why is that, they wash them a lot?" He laughed and said "no.. it's because ethanol cannot be pumped through any gasoline pipeline it will corrode it, so the ethanol is added to the tanker when they fill up their load to be delivered to the station" OUCH!

You should really check out pure-gas.org for a ethanol-fee gas station, at least if you don't get it all the time it'll slow down the nasty ethanol stuff. I think the popularity of stations carrying 100% gas is showing people DO want the choice of non-ethanol.

Ok about the 1.5 inches, yeah I do remember seeing that before too. That's exactly what I meant to not get bogged down in the details of which direction means what. Only that you find the right spot where the engine rpms are the highest and smoothest. You're on the right track! Will be interesting to see how the reman carb is set out of the box!

and hey you're welcome! Can't wait for you to get this all dialed in, purring, and then you can enjoy it!

 

[WylieCoyote]

Believe me, I've looked for ethanol-free around here. The closest station is about 50 miles from my house. My sister, in Charlotte, NC and my parents in Gainesville, FL, can get it right down the street.

It would be nice to reach a point where I can just enjoy this car.

So far:

Tires & wheels
Headlights
Full Tune Up
All new A/C
New power steering rack & hoses
Replace valve cover gasket
Replace timing chain set & front main seal
New shocks & struts
New brakes, rotors, & calipers
Replace Dash Pad
Replace package tray (back seat & all plastics has to come out)
Replace sheared bolt in seat recline mechanism (that was a fun problem to discover while driving)
Replace bulbs in the back of the heater control & guages (MUCH harder than it sounds)
All weatherstrip replaced
New carb & fuel pump (next week)

I realized when I decided to buy this car that there would be repairs, but I didn't expect to double my investment and have it spend more time in shops than it did being driven. I definitely underestimated the situation, and overestimated the amount of it I'd be able to do myself. You absolutely need to have a lift available to maintain these old cars. Doing it on ramps and jackstands just doesn't cut it.

It hit me the other day how completely insane it was for me to fly to Nashville and drive this car home with all these issues needing addressed. Just hoping I reach a point where I can enjoy it a little.

 

[researcher]

ahh okay sorry you can't find the ethanol-free gas. ugh! so then the next best approach is to use the ethanol-compatible fuel line, and just realize it'll be awhile before that ethanol eats through the new carb. Like a couple of years. Just trying to look at the positive side.

Your list of everything that you did is VERY similar if not exact to what I did to mine back then. The seat issue was caught and had the seat re-done. I knew a guy in body trim at Ford in Dearborn who took my seat and rebuilt. That's when Ford was more open than it is today. so yeah the seat was found to have that problem with the reclining mechanism.

The only thing that you didn't mention was the windshield, I had the original one and had to have it re-sealed. I think from the pictures you have an aftermarket?

also, had to add that I know all about the bulbs in the instrument cluster. So much fun to take out, and deal with that mechanical speedometer cable! And adding graphite to make it stop binding in the Michigan cold! What a mess that was!

The one other thing that I had to fix was the ring/pinion gear bearing and carrier in the axle. Some idiot who had it before me thought that doing neutral slams was a good thing! They ended up scoring that carrier, which is basically solid stainless steel! Also had to have the trans rebuilt because of the morons. Wow..

You're right about the fox body. I dont care what people say, you need a lift to work on this car! You just don't have the right leverage/space you need to be able to work on it properly.

The good news is this.. You're almost done with all the repairs I did back then! You're in the home stretch! as they say. Ya driving it from Tennessee to Texas, I'm glad you made it home! so ya I think you'll be able to enjoy it soon!

 

[WylieCoyote]

The guy in Nashville that finally talked the lady into selling it is under the impression that the windshield is original. The top 5" of that factory 'tint' along the top probably used to be dark blue, but is bleached to a funky yellow. I'd normally be skeptical, but the driver's side is loaded with hairline scratches from years of turning on the windshield wipers with abrasive dirt laying on the wiper blade. You get the halo effect when driving it at night, which was not fun on the way home from Nashville, in the rain, with only low-beams working. There's also a 2012 Kentucky registration sticker stuck on it (where the lady actually lived) so it's at least that old.

I really hope you're right about the home stretch. I've been meaning to get the transmission serviced for weeks now, but thus far, things just keep coming up that are of greater priority.
It's like the universe is telling me not to change the fluid & filter. You know the old myth about changing the fluid causing the transmission to fail.

Neutral slams. Oh the humanity. You just want to take people out behind the woodshed.

As far as maintenance, I'd like to get the axle oil changed soon too. The guy in Nashville popped the fill plug and added a little fluid to make it overflow, so I think it's ok for now, although I don't know how long it's been in there.

Can't wait to get it running. It's a pain moving vehicles around it vs. just moving it out of the way.

 

[researcher]

ya makes sense that the windshield COULD be original! And ya I remember those scratches that leave a glaze when driving at night. Not the safest at all, and kinda scary. Especially if it's raining! forget about it! Oh wow yeah I'm replying as I'm reading your post and yup it was raining! Been there before.

I remember that the original windshield said either Ford or Carlite on it. But just so you're not surprised in the future, I did have to re-seal the windshield. They didn't remove it, just caulked more sealant around the edges. Might have been lazy, but I think it's because they didn't want to break the glass removing it.

ahh ya the ol' legend about trans fluid.. You have an automatic that I believe is the c6 transmission.. One of the best that was made at the time, that thing was reliable! Except of course if neutral slams are being done! Then all bets are off. I don't think you'd harm it by changing the fluid. I never really noticed a difference with the fluid (was changed regularly though.. The one thing that DID make a big difference was having the bands adjusted/tightened. That was when the trans was really tight and smooth in its shifting.

oh and woodshed! Ya.. those previous owners were really dumb! I spent a lot of time fixing what they did, and maintenance? ha! what maintenance!?

yeah no real difference with new axle oil but maintenance is important.. I think that's an 8.8" rear, which is very reliable. Oh I did have to have one of the U-joints on the driveshaft replaced. probably from those neutral slams to the driveline!

yeah I really do think you're in the home stretch.. You've spent all this time/money/effort don't give up just yet.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: WylieCoyote
I was thinking about doing that but then worried about what might happen if it's set too lean. Possibility of damage? I've been trying to remember how the adjustments work since it's been years since I messed with my motorcycle carburetors. Is it in-lean, out-rich, or the opposite?


In rich (more fuel) out lean (less fuel). Bottom the screw lightly then 1.5-2 turns out, start the engine let it warm up fully and choke open then turn the screw in just til you notice a difference in engine tone then out 1/4-1/2 turn.
A good ear can get it close.

 

[WylieCoyote]

Thanks again guys! Will probably get started on it when I get home from work tomorrow.

 

[WylieCoyote]

Okay it's on. I backed the screw out one and a half and started it. Screwed it in slowly until I heard the engine start to slow and then I backed it out half a turn. Getting lots of strong gas smelling smoke, and when I shut it off it wants to run on. Continued to back it out by the quarter turn, and hitting the throttle. Can't get the smoke to clear. I'm back to 2 turns out and run on. Suggestions?

 

[researcher]

Originally Posted By: WylieCoyote
Okay it's on. I backed the screw out one and a half and started it. Screwed it in slowly until I heard the engine start to slow and then I backed it out half a turn. Getting lots of strong gas smelling smoke, and when I shut it off it wants to run on. Continued to back it out by the quarter turn, and hitting the throttle. Can't get the smoke to clear. I'm back to 2 turns out and run on. Suggestions?


hey wylie! So the reman carb is causing it to run-on (dieseling).. hmm.. Then it's still leaking fuel into the engine. I know you've checked to make sure the carb/gasket is snug, no air leaks. The idle screw (when choke is off) can cause this but I had this same issue when the accelerator pump cup was bad, it would leak fuel causing it to run-on. Only thing I could think of is that this reman is bad.

If it was rebuilt correctly you shouldn't have any of this. I know that's obvious to say but have to say it. Might be time to rebuild your other one and return this piece of junk. This is exactly what I had hoped WOULD NOT happen.. But so many terrible reman companies out there, it's like an epidemic! sorry..

 

[Trav]

It sounds like they got the float level wrong or used an old partially saturated float when they rehashed it. Exchange.

 

[andyd]

Dont send the new carb back yet. I made a 2150 carb for my last Jeep out of 3 junk ones and an Echlin rebuild kit and 3 cans of carb cleaner. If you can find an Echlin kit from NAPA go with it. The hardest part was finding the right language and the right application. Use a highlighter to keep you on track. A big concern is the throttle plate shaft holes in the casting. A "real" rebuild will have bushings to eliminate air intake. This is slow fit and try work.Most rebuilders don't bother. I used the best body and didn't mess with removing the throttle plate. Previous tries at removing the TP screws was a mess. They are staked and will shear off if you try to back them out.