737 max... what now?

[Exhaustgases]

By big the button should be at least 2 inches diameter, right in the middle of the instrument panel, and all you have to do is push it in.
Maybe its time for Boeing to make the 737 just like it was before all the fancy garbage, as least the flight control system was safer in those days.

One guy here had a great idea, maybe the pilots need to learn how to fly them, and with all the electric turned off.
Back during flight training that is what I had to do, when flying at night, it was a simulated major electric power failure.
The instrument panel was covered no instruments allowed, and that was landing the plane, all by the seat of your pants flying.

Oh and talking about instruments, its just crazy having LCD screens with the instruments, I don't see how that was ever
approved especially with no backup analog ones.

 

[Astro14]

LCD screens in airplanes last a very long time. Displays can be switched in flight.

The mean time between failures for them is several times longer than the mean time between failures for analog gauges. They're a huge improvement over round dials.

"I can't believe you replaced things that broke with things that don't break!" "Especially when there are six of them in the cockpit that can be used interchangeably to display critical information!"

Display failure simply doesn't happen anymore.

But we did have a 767 reject a takeoff (high risk maneuver, brake fires, evacuation, etc.) for a failed mechanical airspeed indicator just last month...

 

[natas]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases
By big the button should be at least 2 inches diameter, right in the middle of the instrument panel, and all you have to do is push it in.
Maybe its time for Boeing to make the 737 just like it was before all the fancy garbage, as least the flight control system was safer in those days.

One guy here had a great idea, maybe the pilots need to learn how to fly them, and with all the electric turned off.
Back during flight training that is what I had to do, when flying at night, it was a simulated major electric power failure.
The instrument panel was covered no instruments allowed, and that was landing the plane, all by the seat of your pants flying.

Oh and talking about instruments, its just crazy having LCD screens with the instruments, I don't see how that was ever
approved especially with no backup analog ones.



I'll take a seat of your pants pilot any day. One who actually knows how to fly the plane. If what Astro14 says is correct, yeah..I don't think I would want to fly an Asian carrier either, if they are NOT trained to fly by the yoke/stick. Screw that.


I remember during my drivers ed class my teacher asked me what would make the better driver? If he had "you" drive on a nice sunny easy road, or if he had "you" drive on some gnarly, twisty and raining mountain road? Which one will build your confidence more? Which one will make you a better driver? Yeah, I want a pilot that can make those decisions. Preferably one who doesn't have to deal with overrides and overrides for overrides, and also fly a plane designed to actually be flown, and not augmented by computers to make an inherently unstable plane, stableish. It's about working with physics not against it. It's one thing to build/design an inherently unstable bomber augmented by computer corrective flight control to thwart radar, but it's another thing to take that same approach/technology to a passenger aircraft in order to save money on design deficiencies--that's just plane dumb. That's like calculating everything will still be cheaper even with lawsuits if don't replace the defective part, vs the cost of recalling all defective vehicles (Ford Pinto anyone?).

It's ok, I'm sure when Boeing is threatened with going out of business, the American Taxpayer will bail them out--they are safe. Now, they are looking at around June 2020 for certification--just scrap the planes already. Nobody is going to buy them. And I'm pretty sure enough people are freaked out that they will not fly on the 737-max planes--just ask a flight attendant.

Boeing, you F'd up. Cut your losses. Scrap-em.

* Or sell them all to Iran at a substantial discount.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by mk378
The new engines on the MAX tend to make it unstable. If it is pitched up enough, it tends to keep going up until it stalls-- unless the pilot makes a very deliberate "down" effort on the controls, much more than the old 737NG does. This is something that pilots could handle with some training and practice, but they weren't told about it or given the opportunity to train and practice.


Seems to me that every pilot on earth should be trained how to "go manual" on any airplane they fly so they can actually fly it manually by themselves. If an airplane can't be flown manually by a pilot, then something is very wrong.


There are airlines, particularly in Asia, that do not train their pilots to "go manual" and punish those pilots that do fly without autopilot engaged 100% of the time.

I'm not making this up.

Momentary deviations from parameters with autopilot off result in fines, deducted from their paycheck. Rates vary, but between $100 and $500 for each deviation, of a knot, or a degree, etc. you could lose your entire month's pay in five minutes of hand flying.

They were never taught to go manual. They have no base on which to build skills. They have no opportunity to even maintain what little skill they have.

This is part of the reason that I will never go to an Asian carrier, even for a $300K salary, as I said in this thread.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5294973/1




Are you speaking of all Asian carriers? I know a number of them I wouldn't fly either but there are good airlines in the bunch.

 

[Astro14]

Not all.

But 100% of the egregious ones are Asian.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Not all.

But 100% of the egregious ones are Asian.




I agree. There are carriers that like you, I won't fly on. I won't name them here.

I would have no trouble with All Nippon, Japan Airlines, or Singapore Airlines. In fact I fly with ANA pretty much all the time.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted by mk378
The new engines on the MAX tend to make it unstable. If it is pitched up enough, it tends to keep going up until it stalls-- unless the pilot makes a very deliberate "down" effort on the controls, much more than the old 737NG does. This is something that pilots could handle with some training and practice, but they weren't told about it or given the opportunity to train and practice.

To make a MAX fly under conventional manual control the same way as other aircraft would require mounting the engines in the right place to begin with. That isn't possible without a major re-design, which would certainly make the FAA consider it a new type of aircraft, and nullify Boeing's marketing strategy that airlines could buy them and not have to retrain their 737 pilots.

So we have Boeing's first effort to stabilize an inherently unstable airliner with some rudimentary fly by wire feedback, and they failed badly.


You need to do some research.

It's not unstable.

 

[4WD]

Yep - big companies tend to have an aviation group because of high liability - and certain airlines are either black listed or take short term approval if there are no other choices.

Same with certain aircraft - EC225 helicopter got banned with the blades came off.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Astro14
Not all.

But 100% of the egregious ones are Asian.




I agree. There are carriers that like you, I won't fly on. I won't name them here.

I would have no trouble with All Nippon, Japan Airlines, or Singapore Airlines. In fact I fly with ANA pretty much all the time.


Those are good choices.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by mk378
The new engines on the MAX tend to make it unstable. If it is pitched up enough, it tends to keep going up until it stalls-- unless the pilot makes a very deliberate "down" effort on the controls, much more than the old 737NG does. This is something that pilots could handle with some training and practice, but they weren't told about it or given the opportunity to train and practice.


Seems to me that every pilot on earth should be trained how to "go manual" on any airplane they fly so they can actually fly it manually by themselves. If an airplane can't be flown manually by a pilot, then something is very wrong.


There are airlines, particularly in Asia, that do not train their pilots to "go manual" and punish those pilots that do fly without autopilot engaged 100% of the time.

I'm not making this up.

Momentary deviations from parameters with autopilot off result in fines, deducted from their paycheck. Rates vary, but between $100 and $500 for each deviation, of a knot, or a degree, etc. you could lose your entire month's pay in five minutes of hand flying.

They were never taught to go manual. They have no base on which to build skills. They have no opportunity to even maintain what little skill they have.

This is part of the reason that I will never go to an Asian carrier, even for a $300K salary, as I said in this thread.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/5294973/1


That's pretty crazy and scary all at the same time. Apparently those airlines see flight statistics to be much more important than safety of aircraft, crew and passengers.

 

[Astro14]

Or, they've looked at the pilots they've hired, and evaluated their skills sets, and decided that the highest level of safety is to keep the pilots' hands off the airplane.

Neither interpretation is pretty...

 

[PimTac]

The CEO of Boeing resigned today.

 

[cjcride]

New York Times reporting he was shown the door

 

[Mr Nice]

Another CEO leaving with a golden parachute and people who care have to clean up the mess...

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by Mr Nice
Another CEO leaving with a golden parachute and people who care have to clean up the mess...



It was past time for this guy to go.
The golden parachute is merely a function of his employment contract.
Glad that the board is finally showing some spine and that this can be a fresh start for Boeing with both the MAX and other programs going forward.
The MAX is Boeing's second consecutive major program screw-up although the first killed nothing more than program profitability. The board has finally recognized that things must change.

 

[Exhaustgases]

I figured it out. Since Boeing got to self certify the Max 8's, I'm going to self certify as well, its only fair. I'm now an airframe mechanic, fully self certified.

 

[natas]

Originally Posted by Exhaustgases
I figured it out. Since Boeing got to self certify the Max 8's, I'm going to self certify as well, its only fair. I'm now an airframe mechanic, fully self certified.



I am a self certified armchair airline pilot with 5000 hours experience.


I don't know how Boeing can convince people--passengers to fly on the 737 max again. That it is safe. This is a perception problem. And, I really don't see how they will be able to overcome that--this image-- and keep the same plane. Maybe make a bunch of changes and call it a 797 or something.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted by natas
Originally Posted by Exhaustgases
I figured it out. Since Boeing got to self certify the Max 8's, I'm going to self certify as well, its only fair. I'm now an airframe mechanic, fully self certified.



I am a self certified armchair airline pilot with 5000 hours experience.


I don't know how Boeing can convince people--passengers to fly on the 737 max again. That it is safe. This is a perception problem. And, I really don't see how they will be able to overcome that--this image-- and keep the same plane. Maybe make a bunch of changes and call it a 797 or something.


What percentage of passengers actually look at the aircraft type when they are booking tickets?

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by natas
Originally Posted by Exhaustgases
I figured it out. Since Boeing got to self certify the Max 8's, I'm going to self certify as well, its only fair. I'm now an airframe mechanic, fully self certified.



I am a self certified armchair airline pilot with 5000 hours experience.


I don't know how Boeing can convince people--passengers to fly on the 737 max again. That it is safe. This is a perception problem. And, I really don't see how they will be able to overcome that--this image-- and keep the same plane. Maybe make a bunch of changes and call it a 797 or something.


What percentage of passengers actually look at the aircraft type when they are booking tickets?





Exactly and what if the airline changes the aircraft type between the time one purchased the ticket to boarding time ? That happens all the time.

 

[natas]

I haven't flown since 2012. But, I would say a small number for sure. I usually did, just because I always liked reading that stuff, but I'm not everyone. You make a good point.