I am still awaiting the "why can't I buy a car with a three on the tree anymore"
7 & 8 speed transmissions
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Originally Posted By: Kira
No one mentioned the size of the engine CAN be lowered with an increase in available gear ratios.
The formula was self apparent:
Bigger torque curve engines could use a 2 or 3 speed transmission.
"Little" 4 bangers from Europe needed the 4th and 5th gears.
OD became a "thing". I loved and still love Ford's putting a little D inside an O on the range selector.
Was it Vette's which had "the first" 6 speed trannies?
Upward and onward.
As long as the engine makes the power to properly utilize the higher gears the transmission works great. What I found sickening was driving a few Jeep Compasses and the like with the 9 speed ZF and the constant downshifting at the slightest incline or head wind. It was very annoying to say the least, they had plenty of complaints and problems, and as a result I'd never own one. I also wonder how long that unit will last considering the constant shifting I experienced. OTOH the 8 speed ZF in a Ram PU seemed perfect, the engine makes enough power to efficiently utilize all the gears it is a pleasure to drive.
No one mentioned the size of the engine CAN be lowered with an increase in available gear ratios.
The formula was self apparent:
Bigger torque curve engines could use a 2 or 3 speed transmission.
"Little" 4 bangers from Europe needed the 4th and 5th gears.
OD became a "thing". I loved and still love Ford's putting a little D inside an O on the range selector.
Was it Vette's which had "the first" 6 speed trannies?
Upward and onward.
As long as the engine makes the power to properly utilize the higher gears the transmission works great. What I found sickening was driving a few Jeep Compasses and the like with the 9 speed ZF and the constant downshifting at the slightest incline or head wind. It was very annoying to say the least, they had plenty of complaints and problems, and as a result I'd never own one. I also wonder how long that unit will last considering the constant shifting I experienced. OTOH the 8 speed ZF in a Ram PU seemed perfect, the engine makes enough power to efficiently utilize all the gears it is a pleasure to drive.
My wife has a Jeep Cherokee 2.4 four cylinder with the 9 speed ZF transmission. When they first came out, there were issues with constant shifting but they have worked that out. There isn't anything unusual or noticeable driving the Cherokee. I don't think they could have effectively used a 4 cylinder w/o the 9 speed tranny; it would have felt underpowered.
Originally Posted By: FermeLaPorte
They sound cool and all, but when they break down, well, you pay the price for complexity. Entropy is always one step away.
The older I get, and the more machines I own and work on, the more towards this line of thinking I am.
As complexity increases, reliability decreases.
Also, I’ve heard that some of the newer trannies with over 6 speeds are prone to hunting.
They sound cool and all, but when they break down, well, you pay the price for complexity. Entropy is always one step away.
The older I get, and the more machines I own and work on, the more towards this line of thinking I am.
As complexity increases, reliability decreases.
Also, I’ve heard that some of the newer trannies with over 6 speeds are prone to hunting.
My company ride has a 9 speed. Useless. The programming is so poor between engine and transmission management that it is always hunting, seeking the nirvana of balance between VVT, and gear selection. Painfully obvious that engine design and transmission have a typical human like marriage... nearly always arguing 
! The rental Jeep I'm currently in has an 8 speed. Again, too close of a ratio IMO to benefit. Trans control is slightly better in this ride.
My personal 2012 T&C is an embarrassment for the so called luxury division of Chrysler.It is un-driveable in economy mode, slamming as it skips second with a violent jerk felt through the whole vehicle. Regular mode has never been a smooth operation either.
Give me six solid speeds, and decent engine management.
! The rental Jeep I'm currently in has an 8 speed. Again, too close of a ratio IMO to benefit. Trans control is slightly better in this ride.My personal 2012 T&C is an embarrassment for the so called luxury division of Chrysler.It is un-driveable in economy mode, slamming as it skips second with a violent jerk felt through the whole vehicle. Regular mode has never been a smooth operation either.
Give me six solid speeds, and decent engine management.
I love the ZF 8HP45 in my 2 Series; I took it to an HPDE and put car in Sport+ mode and the transmission in Sport mode- there were maybe two points on the course where I might have done something different. And it is equally as competent on the street. As a matter of fact, I prefer it to the 7 speed DCT in the M2/3/4.
7 and 8 speeds are now old news. Everybody is going 10.
More gears, better FE. Simple as that.
More gears, better FE. Simple as that.
Originally Posted By: MCompact
I love the ZF 8HP45 in my 2 Series; I took it to an HPDE and put car in Sport+ mode and the transmission in Sport mode- there were maybe two points on the course where I might have done something different. And it is equally as competent on the street. As a matter of fact, I prefer it to the 7 speed DCT in the M2/3/4.
Thank god BMW did not use the ZF 9 speed. What a POS that gear box is. And agreed on the DCT, they are all pretty terrible. Have not driven a single DCT that I like.
I love the ZF 8HP45 in my 2 Series; I took it to an HPDE and put car in Sport+ mode and the transmission in Sport mode- there were maybe two points on the course where I might have done something different. And it is equally as competent on the street. As a matter of fact, I prefer it to the 7 speed DCT in the M2/3/4.
Thank god BMW did not use the ZF 9 speed. What a POS that gear box is. And agreed on the DCT, they are all pretty terrible. Have not driven a single DCT that I like.
I must be a Luddite, we only have 5 & 6 speed AT's
. The 5 speed is in the 2005 4.6 V-8 Explorer. The 6 speed is in the 2017 2.3 EB Explorer. The 6 speed in the 2017 is nicely matched to the GTDI engine. It seems to use the power more efficiently with less down and up shifting than the 5 speed does going up steep hills.
Whimsey
Whimsey
My 7 Speed E350 was really a 6 Speed in normal operation. Always started out in 2nd gear from a stoplight or stop sign. Only when in sport mode would it start off in 1st.
My 2018 Sonata is 8 Speed. Great transmission. Does NOT hunt for correct gear.
My 2018 Sonata is 8 Speed. Great transmission. Does NOT hunt for correct gear.
we have a new 10 speed f150 in the stable. At cruise, the extra gears are excellent. It finds the right gear and hunkers down and stays there. Acceleration, between the constant shifting and slight lag from the turbos, is not a smooth thing. Now, it's not intrusive and ford did the programming very well in my opinion, but the complexity leaves little perception of control between the accelerator and the ground. You just push it and the computer takes over. Any perception you had about modulating shifts by throttle input are gone. And the smoothness from a torque converter through a held gear is also gone- bump pull bump pull bump surge bump. that said, it will skip gears on the way up and down, so the number of iterations varies based on conditions.... but it really does feel more like driving a tractor where speed is controlled by the transmission and the engine rpm stays in a very small window (constant)... or the gas pedal controls gear selection and the computer controls throttle.
-m
-m
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Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
To me they are annoying. Constant up and down shifting and being in such a high gear all the time that it makes the engine lug...makes me long for the old days when 5 and fewer speeds was the norm...wait until you have to get one of these mega-gear trannies rebuilt...will probably be more financially feasible just to buy another vehicle...
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Been driving one of these off and on for years:
Same here. Been driving an 18 speed for many years now.
Been driving one of these off and on for years:
Same here. Been driving an 18 speed for many years now.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
I think you need to do what he suggested, and that is drive one. We have two vehicles with vastly different levels of power output both backed by the 8spd. Neither of them hunt up and down. The Jeep will climb massive hills in 8th, the only time it wants to downshift is when you tickle the loud pedal and tell it to and then it always seems to know the right gear.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
I think you need to do what he suggested, and that is drive one. We have two vehicles with vastly different levels of power output both backed by the 8spd. Neither of them hunt up and down. The Jeep will climb massive hills in 8th, the only time it wants to downshift is when you tickle the loud pedal and tell it to and then it always seems to know the right gear.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
I think you need to do what he suggested, and that is drive one. We have two vehicles with vastly different levels of power output both backed by the 8spd. Neither of them hunt up and down. The Jeep will climb massive hills in 8th, the only time it wants to downshift is when you tickle the loud pedal and tell it to and then it always seems to know the right gear.
I have and I don't like them...
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
I think you need to do what he suggested, and that is drive one. We have two vehicles with vastly different levels of power output both backed by the 8spd. Neither of them hunt up and down. The Jeep will climb massive hills in 8th, the only time it wants to downshift is when you tickle the loud pedal and tell it to and then it always seems to know the right gear.
I have and I don't like them...
I like my 8 speed.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
Simply not true. Have fun with you 3 on the tree. The rest of us like progress.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Number_35
I think that beyond a certain point the complexity outweighs the gains. I'd say that 5 or 6 forward speeds is the sweet spot.
Drive a ZF-8 Challenger or Grand Cherokee back-to-back with a NAG-1 5-speed version, and you'll drop that line of thinking REAL quick. Or use a GM 5-speed vs 8-speed for your comparison, doesn't matter. The advantage of more forward gears is especially obvious with a normally-aspirated v6, the V8s and turbo engines can somewhat overcome the wide gaps of a 5-speed, but the v6 really came into its own when it got paired with the 8-speed.
If you constantly drive wide open throttle, the 8+ speeds are nice. Any other time they're just annoying. They're constantly up and down shifting, and they always have the engine lugging. Even the slightest bit of acceleration requires a down shift. I know why they're going with these mega-gear trannies and it's because they keep going with smaller and smaller displacement engines that have no torque, so they have a hard time pulling the wider ratio gaps between the gears. Larger displacement engines don't need that many gears...
Simply not true. Have fun with you 3 on the tree. The rest of us like progress.
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