6th-Gen Camaro 1LE: Two of them.

[MCompact]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I might be looking at the V6 1LE depending on the price. 336 and around 3,300-3,400lbs is about right. As long as they don't price it too far over $30K

I would like to have a handling oriented GT car (without receiving the German maintenance bill). I don't need the V8, but it has to been enough of a sleeper that I can sneak up on the local WRX/370Z hanging around, I am happy.

And yes, you can have a lightweight car and the safety regs... silly American "muscle" just has not figured it out yet. I have no doubt that they could make a 3,000 or less monster.


I wish my 2er was lighter as well. Like you, I prefer a sub-3,000 pound car.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
I might be looking at the V6 1LE depending on the price. 336 and around 3,300-3,400lbs is about right. As long as they don't price it too far over $30K

I would like to have a handling oriented GT car (without receiving the German maintenance bill). I don't need the V8, but it has to been enough of a sleeper that I can sneak up on the local WRX/370Z hanging around, I am happy.

And yes, you can have a lightweight car and the safety regs... silly American "muscle" just has not figured it out yet. I have no doubt that they could make a 3,000 or less monster.

I don't know how light you can go with a mild steel unit body? Even my Focus with an aluminum 4 cyl engine, mtx, very delicate and light interior, only 2 airbags, still is ~2700lbs. And its not particularly rigid even for the soft suspension it has.
I don't know why a major manufacturer doesn't use tube frames, but it must be cost I guess. Tack welds are easy for robotics and therefore cheap. Also I'd guess making a tube frame car as quiet as a unit body might be expensive or heavy.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: MCompact
I wish my 2er was lighter as well. Like you, I prefer a sub-3,000 pound car.


Ha, I wish my Mr. 2 was lighter...

The M235 has been on my medium-list. The problem is that an used S5 w/4.2 is in the same pricepoint range. The S5 is still the car I love to look at. That and because I am a cheap, my 30K budget is that I would skew down to a Fiesta ST before skewing upward for a 1-2 year old Bimmer.

 

[Cujet]

My 2004 S2000 weighs in at 2700 pounds. It's absolutely tiny compared to the Camaro. Yet, park the S2000 next to a 1966 Mustang,and the S2000 looks somewhat larger. It's no wonder those old pony cars were so light. They were small.

Today, it's rather difficult to make a lightweight car at the size people want/require. It's not just the safety regs. New cars are fairly large!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Ever see a new Challenger next to a real original one? It's no wonder it's a heavyweight, it is HUGE!

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan

I don't know how light you can go with a mild steel unit body? Even my Focus with an aluminum 4 cyl engine, mtx, very delicate and light interior, only 2 airbags, still is ~2700lbs. And its not particularly rigid even for the soft suspension it has.
I don't know why a major manufacturer doesn't use tube frames, but it must be cost I guess. Tack welds are easy for robotics and therefore cheap. Also I'd guess making a tube frame car as quiet as a unit body might be expensive or heavy.


Granted, it would be tough... but we are talking about a track-oriented package. The first thing you do for track day is to remove the weight/add sticky tires... so the 1LE would be a good place to charge more for less options. I would pay more for less buttons on the steering wheel.

Well...lets toss out the AWD options first. The WRX is 3200 and change... with an AWD system though it plays with two less cylinders.

Recent examples:
Mazda's RX8 was just a hair over 3,000. The Cayman is 100lbs under the 3K mark. 911 is right at it 3,100 with back seat. The not "lightweight" enoug Toyburu is 2,700. And a modern example of the small Ford would be the FiST at 2,800... the FoST is 3,200. Z is 3,200 Genesis is 3,300. Golf 3K.

With those later few options, dropping 300 is not unreasonable... maybe the FoST would be the hardest with the 4 doors.

So the previous gen Camaro topped the scale at 3,700 (with a V6) The new version drops 300lbs. Simple platform change helps. But the problem is this: the Camaro's interior room is not great (not a far cry from some smaller a lighter options). So, how is it holding it weight? I think much of the body is "expanded" and not trimmed. Still, I think that they could make it to 3,200 with the V6... and if you did a track-day with some deletes (ie the backseats, etc) then you could shave another 200lbs.

Anyone remember the Chevy 130R concept back in 2012? Alpha platform? Yeah, it was the way the Camaro was going but I think they kept the Camaro a bit bigger in the body it seems. If the cut the length and crammed the LGX into that smaller body... you might be able to get about 3,000 (even without a delete) if you did not load it up with too many extras.

Now, the Stang is pudgy if not outright obese at 3,500 V6/four-banger. The Challenger is so fat, it is Elvis on the toilet.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Even my Focus with an aluminum 4 cyl engine, mtx, very delicate and light interior, only 2 airbags, still is ~2700lbs. And its not particularly rigid even for the soft suspension it has.


Torsional rigidity is very high in the new Camaro platform. And no new car is light IMO. Keep dreaming. Certainly won't be with a full V8 and 8 speed autobox.

Pulling just a tick under a full G bone stack on a 300 ft. skidpad is very impressive though.
I seriously doubt the track rats here would know how to use the car fully without a pro to counsel them and a restraint to protect their neck muscles from strain. Perfect NVH score in C&D testing means it will be a very pleasant DD too.

The six banger 1LE package is very interesting as it grants virtually all the good bits and the V6 is pumped up to match. Being lighter is great, but personally I feel the quest for a real light weight production car is going to be tough. Going to have to build it yourself.

 

[FutureDoc]

Steve: The new MX-5 is light. I was not expecting any major manufacturer ever to get below 2,400 in a non-Lotus exotic vehicle ever again. I was thinking that 2,600 was the new 2,200.

I agree, nothing with a V8 and a 8-speed is going to crack that mark. However, I am still hopeful that there is going to be an "affordable" non-german V6 at about 3,000 mark. IMO there are so many great V6 options in the parts-box but they are lacking a good chassis to match. Too many V6 paired to FWD formats (Accord) or it is a base option where the car was really designed to hold the V8.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
And yes, you can have a lightweight car and the safety regs... silly American "muscle" just has not figured it out yet. I have no doubt that they could make a 3,000 or less monster.


Maybe If they let you buy a TOTALLY and COMPLETELY de-contented version, with extra light weight parts installed (like BEYOND what Bimmer did with their 'factory light weights').

But for some reason, even if they charged a BIG premium for this, the manufacturers refuse to do this (assembly line stoppages, whatever????).

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Steve: The new MX-5 is light. I was not expecting any major manufacturer ever to get below 2,400 in a non-Lotus exotic vehicle ever again. I was thinking that 2,600 was the new 2,200.

I agree, nothing with a V8 and a 8-speed is going to crack that mark. However, I am still hopeful that there is going to be an "affordable" non-german V6 at about 3,000 mark. IMO there are so many great V6 options in the parts-box but they are lacking a good chassis to match. Too many V6 paired to FWD formats (Accord) or it is a base option where the car was really designed to hold the V8.


Exactly. The mfgr skews the content of the base versus loaded models to enhance sales and profit potential.

We would need a really dedicated vehicle designed with tracking in mind. Until we get in a focus group and can influence car designs I am afraid this means it is highly unlikely. Few things in life are less rewarding dynamically than a nose heavy high powered wrong wheel drive car...

 

[IndyIan]

I guess the best option now for a light fast new car, is to pump up a FRS/BRZ or Miata? At reasonable/reliable power levels they won't be quite as fast as the Camaro, but maybe more fun to drive on the street or for autocross.
It seems easier to make a light slow car fast, than heavy fast car, light.

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Exactly. The mfgr skews the content of the base versus loaded models to enhance sales and profit potential.

We would need a really dedicated vehicle designed with tracking in mind. Until we get in a focus group and can influence car designs I am afraid this means it is highly unlikely. Few things in life are less rewarding dynamically than a nose heavy high powered wrong wheel drive car...


Ha, I was in that working group. I was working as sub-contractor back in 2010 for Deloitte (working for Ford) and trying to influence Millennial car-buyers. (Millennials are very hard to advertise to y'know). Two groups had a higher-influence levels, "large displacement truck car guys" and "small displacement performance car" guys" (I say "guys" because both groups were 90% male). Really, we called it the Mustang vs Miata group as both groups are rabid fanboys quick to dismiss the other. Each group did more of their car maintenance,

If you were a car-guy, friends listed to your opinion. You listened to the automobile world and often regurgitated your preferences to your peer network. I am sure some of that work was a factor why Ford brought out the Fiesta/Focus ST. We said that Ford was completely ignoring the small displacement crowd, thus all the four-bangers folks (and there is as many of them as there are bigger displacement folks) would never recommend a Ford car compared to a Subie, Mitzu, Honda etc, nor was the F150 guys going to recommend the Fiesta either. fyi, the marketing push for the Fiesta outdid the Edge (traditional marketing campaign) using 1/3 of the budget.

We have a few track-oriented vehicles. Now, that the GM Alpha platform I was talking about was the light-er weight "sport/track" platform (and designed RWD). It does not mean that any track-package as to be a ground-up track-car but if they are doing a track package, they need to do a weight-delete option not just a brake package. I would not track a car very often, but I need a handling-focused 2+2 that is comfortable and non-luxury affordable.... because my "scenic" way home looks like this:

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I guess the best option now for a light fast new car, is to pump up a FRS/BRZ or Miata? At reasonable/reliable power levels they won't be quite as fast as the Camaro, but maybe more fun to drive on the street or for autocross.
It seems easier to make a light slow car fast, than heavy fast car, light.


Some folks were wondering if Subaru was ever going to put the H6 in the BRZ and make a modernday XT6/SVX. Supposedly they are replacing the 3.6 H6 with a smaller displacement engine. If it is anything like the old EZ30D (3.0 H6) with 250hp and 220lbs of torque (mid 2000 outputs). I would be in line to grab one.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
It does not mean that any track-package has to be a ground-up track-car but if they are doing a track package, they need to do a weight-delete option not just a brake package. I would not track a car very often, but I need a handling-focused 2+2 that is comfortable and non-luxury affordable.... because my "scenic" way home looks like this:

+1

...and that road looks just like some of the stages of the Corsica round of the WRC!

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Even my Focus with an aluminum 4 cyl engine, mtx, very delicate and light interior, only 2 airbags, still is ~2700lbs. And its not particularly rigid even for the soft suspension it has.


Torsional rigidity is very high in the new Camaro platform. And no new car is light IMO. Keep dreaming. Certainly won't be with a full V8 and 8 speed autobox.

Pulling just a tick under a full G bone stack on a 300 ft. skidpad is very impressive though.
I seriously doubt the track rats here would know how to use the car fully without a pro to counsel them and a restraint to protect their neck muscles from strain. Perfect NVH score in C&D testing means it will be a very pleasant DD too.

The six banger 1LE package is very interesting as it grants virtually all the good bits and the V6 is pumped up to match. Being lighter is great, but personally I feel the quest for a real light weight production car is going to be tough. Going to have to build it yourself.


I'm kinda thinking that the 1LE won't leave much room for mild track day mods, such as sticky tires and brake cooling ducts. The General pretty much takes care of that at the factory. Case in point: I signed up to instruct at a Porsche Club event at VIR last November, and was assigned a first-time student in a Chevrolet SS. I didn't know much about the SS, so I posted on the company intranet, asking for any advice that the vehicle guys could give me on what to watch out for on the SS in a track day setting. I got a lengthy reply back from the ride and handling engineer that actually ran the 24-hour track use qualification. He said that the Brembo brake package was absolutely track qualified, and gave recommended tire pressures. Then when I got to the event and looked at the car, it had 140 treadwear rating on the stock Bridgestone tires. That was actually stickier than the tires on my Camaro! The car ran two days at VIR completely trouble-free, and my student drove home happy.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^A beautiful story. GM's 24 hour track test is an outrageous example of how OEM's sweat the details.

It's wonderful to be able to pump up the tires and just hit the track!

Amazing time to be loving performance...

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Case in point: I signed up to instruct at a Porsche Club event at VIR last November, and was assigned a first-time student in a Chevrolet SS. I didn't know much about the SS, so I posted on the company intranet, asking for any advice that the vehicle guys could give me on what to watch out for on the SS in a track day setting. I got a lengthy reply back from the ride and handling engineer that actually ran the 24-hour track use qualification. He said that the Brembo brake package was absolutely track qualified, and gave recommended tire pressures. Then when I got to the event and looked at the car, it had 140 treadwear rating on the stock Bridgestone tires. That was actually stickier than the tires on my Camaro! The car ran two days at VIR completely trouble-free, and my student drove home happy.


Yes, if I were in the market for (and had the coin for) a performance 4 door sedan, that thing (with the TR6060 gear box) would be at the top of my list, even over the LT1 equipped V Caddies (NO AFM/DOD/huffer!!

).

I looked one over in a showroom last week, and it was IMPRESSIVE!

 

[69GTX]

While no doubt heavier than the Camaro SS 1LE, the 4085 lb, 485 hp Dodge Challenger Scat Pack (MSRP $38K) is in the same HP and price league.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
While no doubt heavier than the Camaro SS 1LE, the 4085 lb, 485 hp Dodge Challenger Scat Pack (MSRP $38K) is in the same HP and price league.


I wonder how much one would have to spend to pull 800+ lbs. out of that??

 

[Indydriver]

As of two years ago, I had never owned an 8 cyl vehicle and I'm 61. Now, the kids are through college, the house is paid for and I drive an LS3 Camaro (with an additional bolt-on 50 rwhp) and a 4WD Tahoe 5.3.

I will never drive a non-V8 vehicle again.

Get the SS.