5w30 synthetic oil in a manual transmission

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
...But when I come to a site asking for info from the experts I don't expect them to be condescending and avoid the direct questions.

I dilutes any held notions of expert.


Put your big boy pants on and ask for information in a manner of one seeking said information in a serious manner and drop the attitude.

 

[SHOZ]

It was a pretty plain question. What is the viscosity specs of the AC Delco. Why all the angst?

 

[MolaKule]

No angst here.

You have been given numerous references and honest answers in over 7 pages of responses to your questions and comments.

Yet you come back with argumentative comments and do not seem to be able to comprehend the data given to you.

When "GM Synchromesh’s" are listed under the heading of, The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt (SAE 75W80) range: what does that mean and what is the inference?


Quote:
H. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt (SAE 75W80) range:

1. Redline MTL 75W80

2. Amsoil MTF (9.7 cSt)

3. GM Synchromesh’s

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

6. Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF


It is one thing to collect data, it is another thing to understand that data and apply it to your specific application.

Now, I recommend we let this be the last comment you or I make in this thread.

 

[SHOZ]

Car has been sitting for 5 days as we had a flood. Temps have been in the 20f-30f range the whole time. I went to move it so as to change out the fluid again with more 5w30 M1 and the shifter went right into reverse with little hesitation. Before it would take quite the effort and jockeying around through some gears to get that to happen.

Drained the fluid out and it still smelled like gear oil. 5w30 M1 HM going back in today.

 

[Shannow]

Given that reverse is non synchro, most of the times I've had problems going into reverse have been clutch drag.

Putting it into a synchronised gear slows all the gearbox parts down and they go in.

 

[widman]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: dagreek
If you read the paper that Richard Widman wrote....

Note that Richard is a member here, and might be so kind as to clarify the meaning of his words, since there seems to be a difference of opinion on that matter.


What I tried to explain is that a good diesel 5W-30 has a lot of the same additives and actually about 45 to 48 lbs Timken. It does very well in many of the transmissions designed for thinner oils that should not have sulfur/phos (typically have paper or carbon fiber grabbing surfaces), although it does not have the modifiers that help break the film and grab the synchronizers like the MTF oils.

I will be updating the part about "Modern Transmission Oils", as I have recently been studying them and recently released some of the new formulations to the market, where people are raving about the improved shift quality when going from traditional MTF, or traditional GL-4 oils. I really only added that section on the last update so people could understand the difference and stop asking if they could use MTF in a Corvair or Mustang.

 

[SHOZ]

With the temps in the 30fs after an hour the car shifts better than it ever did. If I stay with MO then I will go to the 5w20 M1 HM and add some zddp. After two hours of driving the trans temp is round 120f or so. It gets most of the heat from the engine block I would guess. I could hold my had on it for 30 seconds before it got uncomfortable.

 

[widman]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
With the temps in the 30fs after an hour the car shifts better than it ever did. If I stay with MO then I will go to the 5w20 M1 HM and add some zddp. After two hours of driving the trans temp is round 120f or so. It gets most of the heat from the engine block I would guess. I could hold my had on it for 30 seconds before it got uncomfortable.


Your Hyundai transmissions need GL-4 75W-85, and better if you get the new GL-4+ non sulfur/phos product.

 

[Garak]

Thanks for that information, Richard. Of course, that's different than an ILSAC 5w-30. Also, out of curiosity, what kind of 5w-30 diesel oils were you intending, when you wrote this? Some years back, we did have 5w-30 dedicated HDEOs up here, like CI-4 or older (not some older CF thing with no minimum HTHS), branded as Esso XD-3, probably a blend, given its market position. Now, we see 5w-30 E6, E7, E9 CJ-4/SN synthetics up here, on occasion.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: widman
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
With the temps in the 30fs after an hour the car shifts better than it ever did. If I stay with MO then I will go to the 5w20 M1 HM and add some zddp. After two hours of driving the trans temp is round 120f or so. It gets most of the heat from the engine block I would guess. I could hold my had on it for 30 seconds before it got uncomfortable.


Your Hyundai transmissions need GL-4 75W-85, and better if you get the new GL-4+ non sulfur/phos product.
Yes but that does not work. It came with that in it and has been changed one before with the Hyundai fluid.

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
With the temps in the 30fs after an hour the car shifts better than it ever did. If I stay with MO then I will go to the 5w20 M1 HM and add some zddp. After two hours of driving the trans temp is round 120f or so. It gets most of the heat from the engine block I would guess. I could hold my had on it for 30 seconds before it got uncomfortable.


Your trans doesn't get hot enough for ZDDP to work.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
With the temps in the 30fs after an hour the car shifts better than it ever did. If I stay with MO then I will go to the 5w20 M1 HM and add some zddp. After two hours of driving the trans temp is round 120f or so. It gets most of the heat from the engine block I would guess. I could hold my had on it for 30 seconds before it got uncomfortable.


Your trans doesn't get hot enough for ZDDP to work.
Isn't zddp and additive in GL4 and GL5 oils?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ


Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Your trans doesn't get hot enough for ZDDP to work.


Isn't zddp an[d] additive in GL4 and GL5 oils?
.

ZDDP is only used in some gear lubes as a secondary antioxidant and only in about 20 ppm, which is the reason it sometimes shows up in GL-4 and GL-5 lube analysis.

In GL-5 gear lubes, the primary extreme pressure (EP) additive is a sulfur-phosphorus compound.

In GL-4 gear lubes, the primary Anti-Wear (AW) (NOT EP ) additive is a multifunctional, phosphate ester compound.

Had you gentlemen studied and understood the White Papers on Gear Lubes and Manual Transmission Fluids, you would already know this, and it is free information.

 

[widman]

Quote:
Richard. Of course, that's different than an ILSAC 5w-30. Also, out of curiosity, what kind of 5w-30 diesel oils were you intending, when you wrote this? Some years back, we did have 5w-30 dedicated HDEOs up here, like CI-4 or older (not some older CF thing with no minimum HTHS), branded as Esso XD-3, probably a blend, given its market position. Now, we see 5w-30 E6, E7, E9 CJ-4/SN synthetics up here, on occasion.


I was referring to, and have been using CI-4 up until now, when I got the GL-4+ that replaces the MTF.

Additives in the GL-4+ (at least in what I have, which I believe is the same formulation as Nissan and others)

Magnesium 1742
Calcium 16
Phosphorous 1316
Zinc 1099

Visc of 75W-85
@40 57.5
@100 11.9

Combination of group IV and V synthetics

 

[SHOZ]

The trans is shifting better every time I take it out. It amazes me what the change is from using the M1. Closest thing to a mechanic in a bottle for this transmission.

Going to get cold here Sunday with a high of 17f and dropping all day to single digits so I should get a good feel on the really cold shifting with the M1.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: widman
Quote:
Richard. Of course, that's different than an ILSAC 5w-30. Also, out of curiosity, what kind of 5w-30 diesel oils were you intending, when you wrote this? Some years back, we did have 5w-30 dedicated HDEOs up here, like CI-4 or older (not some older CF thing with no minimum HTHS), branded as Esso XD-3, probably a blend, given its market position. Now, we see 5w-30 E6, E7, E9 CJ-4/SN synthetics up here, on occasion.


I was referring to, and have been using CI-4 up until now, when I got the GL-4+ that replaces the MTF.

Additives in the GL-4+ (at least in what I have, which I believe is the same formulation as Nissan and others)

Magnesium 1742
Calcium 16
Phosphorous 1316
Zinc 1099

Visc of 75W-85
@40 57.5
@100 11.9

Combination of group IV and V synthetics


Those are former generation formulae for dedicated MTFs'.

Quote:
A bit of formulating history may explain things a little.

Many years back, the only way to achieve a GL-4 rating was to use either a commercial additive package or mix your own. When I started out, I mixed my own individual components.

As far as commercial additives, the only way to do it back then was to take a sulfur-phosphorus EP gear oil additive package and use a treat rate of 1/3 to 1/2, and use a low treat rate of ZDDP as the primary anti-oxidant, and add the friction modifier.

Later, a special ZDDP-based package was offered with additional anti-oxidants, metal inhibitors, rust inhibitors, emulsifiers, and synchro friction modifiers. The HiTec 353 and the Lubrizol equivalent uses this combo.

Today, we use a special multi-funtional phosphate ester package that contains a powerful aminic-phenolic antioxidant, with added metal inhibitors, rust inhibitors, emulsifiers, and synchro friction modifiers.


What is a GL-4?

 

[CT8]

What is a GL4? It is not GL 1 or 2 or 3 or a GL5.

 

[SHOZ]

Drove last night in 5f temps. A little more hesitant to go int gear but this disappeared after the trans warmed up. No thick fluid feel.

 

[SHOZ]

Started driving the car again after the long winter sleep. No grinding at all. No noise. It still is a bit hard to get into 1st and rev but I think that is a clutch issue.

 

[yvon_la]

usually gl-4 and automatic transmission oil are pretty close.yes there are variant but its likely you ll like the automatic transmission oil better even in a manual .i wouldnt put gl-5 ,gear oil or engine oil in a gl-4 transmission