2009 Honda Pilot - Engine Piston Damage

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I have believed in the past and still believe to this day that the recommended OCI is too long for the VCM engines, or at least doesn't allow enough freeboard for severe circumstances. The basic engine design is solid; the VCM is simply special valvetrain componentry and programming. You never see these issues on non-VCM engines. But it's clear that the VCM system CAN present, in a clearly small number of situations, some sort of additional challenge to the lubricant that appears to not have been accounted for in the OLM programming.

So...what do you do?

I think the correlation between Honda's VCM 3.5L engine and some of GM's V-6 engines is striking. GM detected a problem in the engines that, as I recall, was related to the timing chain. The OLM was subsequently updated by a service campaign to indicate a maximum oil life of 5,000 miles. If I recall correctly, this was a significant reduction from the original maximum oil life. This undoubtedly added to the total cost of ownership for all owners, due to more frequent oil changes (I know what you're thinking, but stay with me here).

Honda undoubtedly knows about the problem here. Two have been reported on BITOG. Maybe there are as many as another 1,000 engines out there that have been repaired. You don't see it reported on internet forums with too much regularity, but it is happening. So what SHOULD Honda do here for owners of existing VCM-equipped engines?

Option 1: Reprogram the MM for all owners. I think this has more potential negative implications than people give it credit for. It would most likely increase the frequency of oil changes for everyone, even those engines that may not be predisposed to the problem. It would likely save some owners (or Honda) the expense of new engines. The question that none of us can answer is what is the real failure rate here? How many people really experience this problem compared with the number of people who never will? It's easy to say "reduce the OCI" as a knee-jerk reaction, but doing so may "penalize" a vast majority of owners for the benefit of a relative very few.

Option 2: Change the recommended lubricant. I don't know what the legal implications of this would be, or even if a different lubricant would be more effective. Certainly, one could posit that any synthetic 5W-20 would provide better sludge defense at current OCIs than a conventional 5W-20. Would a 5W-30 be better? Maybe. Ford has demonstrated that it can make an official recommendation to a heavier grade of oil (moving to a 40 grade to attenuate VCT noises), but there are likely a lot of legal hurdles here to overcome, because these engines were emissions-certified using 5W-20. Still, a recommendation for a synthetic 5W-20 could be appropriate. The same issue applies as in Option 1 above: you may be "penalizing" a majority of the owners to benefit just a few.

Option 3: An educational campaign. I think this may be Honda's best option. Send out letters to owners of these vehicles; not recall letters, but simply informational letters advising customers of the potential issue of running long OCIs with conventional oil. The risk you run here is potentially confusing some owners and alarming others about a problem that may only apply to a very few.

A constant theme in all three options, and likely any other option that Honda has at its disposal, is it has to strike a balance between trying to ensure a potentially very few owners who may be predisposed to this issue don’t have problems, without negatively affecting a potentially great number of owners who never will experience this. What if half of the engines were failing? I think that most people would agree that broad preventative action would be appropriate. But as the actual failure percentage figure goes down, when do you make the decision that it’s not appropriate to make ALL owners change their maintenance habits? 5%? 1%? 0.01%?

Honda has that number. I don’t. As much as I’d like to say that “Honda should really do something about this”, I really don’t have enough information to make that judgment. GM made the decision to have ALL owners of those engines reduce their OCI (via reprogramming the OLM). GM apparently felt that enough people would potentially be involved to make that broad change. Are enough Honda owners potentially affected to justify compelling all owners to reduce their OCI?
 
Hokiefyd you bring up some great points, here's the problem. Anything that Honda does in the form of a campaign, or reprogram all the MM's in this class of engines would be admitting they made a mistake. Once they do that they would be opening Pandora's Box. They'd rather deal with it on a case by case basis and keep it low key, besides it will cost them less money too. Maybe GM felt their issue was a bigger problem because it effected more vehicles? Only Honda and GM know the reasons for their actions.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
It's a shame this is how the auto industry works, it makes buying the first year or two of any new design or technology a real [censored] shoot.


We see this all the time, eh Frank? The early adopters ARE the proving grounds.

Just reinforces my feelings which mirror yours, be very cautious buying any new tech!
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
It's a shame this is how the auto industry works, it makes buying the first year or two of any new design or technology a real [censored] shoot.


We see this all the time, eh Frank? The early adopters ARE the proving grounds.

Just reinforces my feelings which mirror yours, be very cautious buying any new tech!


Yep Steve, that's why I'm still waiting on a Pentastar Wrangler. Which BTW I think is going to be a great engine once it gets over the teething pains, and before it gets DI.
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That will start the consumer testing all over again for Chrysler and their buyers IMO. It sucks being the Guinea Pig, and it can be very costly. Still lots of people disagree, and seem to think the engineers nail it every time, they don't make mistakes, etc. That's not the case in many instances. This Pilot is just another unfortunate example. Sometimes thinking out of the box is good. The one size fits all, follow the OLM, the engineers know best, and never use an additive mentality is not the best way to go for these problem situations.
 
Re: Point 2) synthetic oil OLM did not prevent the Odyssey probelm whose pictures were posted in this forum.

all one has to do is to look at the places where Honda V6 VCM engine is being used and see how often they are blowing up the engines. As far as I know Odyssey Touring and Pilot were the only two models which had VCM in the past. The only Acura with VCM is 2013 RDX which is too early to show any symptoms.

I hang out in Odyssey forum. Anybody else who frequents Pilot internet hangout area would be able to get an idea of how often this problem shows up.

- Vikas
 
Wanted to log on to give an update. My Pilot has been getting it's new(used) engine installed this week at my local Honda dealer. New engine has 34k on it. I stopped by to check it out when it was delivered and peeked in the oil hole, and it looks clean. It is supposed to be done tomorrow.
Right now I am on the hook for about $600 of the repair out of about $5800. I have been talking with the selling dealer but they have not offered to cover the repair. I think recovering the money is going to be more of a long-term effort, but I won't give up.
Thanks to all you guys for your feedback and suggestions. They have been helpful. I will be interested to see how this works out for Honda over the next few years and if we start seeing more engine failure. Obviously I will take care of the new engine in my Pilot more conservatively, and hopefully never have any other engine issues. I do feel the need to tell everyone I see driving a Pilot about this potential problem, and not to use the MM though. I will have to do my best to restrain myself.
 
Originally Posted By: nmike101

Right now I am on the hook for about $600 of the repair out of about $5800.


Glad they are at least taking care of most of it. Is the $600 considered a deductible of some sort? So the odometer is still going to read 72K?
 
Originally Posted By: nmike101
I do feel the need to tell everyone I see driving a Pilot about this potential problem, and not to use the MM though.

I will have to do my best to restrain myself.


Do tell them...don't scare them, but honestly if another owner with an identical engine, transmission, ect, has experienced what they believe to be a engineering defect I would WANT that other owner with experience to explain to me what has occurred.

I would be VERY appreciative and change my OCI accordingly.

As long as you don't rant at people they will be VERY grateful for the info and make maintenance changes accordingly. Especially if it saves them LOTS OF HASSLE and a HUGE bill in the future.
 
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Originally Posted By: nmike101
I will be interested to see how this works out for Honda over the next few years and if we start seeing more engine failure.


No doubt that is going to happen more and more. Problems don't usually come to light immediately. PAX tires are first thought to be perfectly fine, UNTIL you have to change them or fix a flat.
 
I still don't understand how you can have a warranty, that you are still under, that carries a $100 deductible yet you are looking at $600 out of pocket.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: nmike101
I do feel the need to tell everyone I see driving a Pilot about this potential problem, and not to use the MM though.

I will have to do my best to restrain myself.


Do tell them...don't scare them, but honestly if another owner with an identical engine, transmission, ect, has experienced what they believe to be a engineering defect I would WANT that other owner with experience to explain to me what has occurred.

I would be VERY appreciative and change my OCI accordingly.

As long as you don't rant at people they will be VERY grateful for the info and make maintenance changes accordingly. Especially if it saves them LOTS OF HASSLE and a HUGE bill in the future.



I will certainly tell anyone will to listen, and not to scare them, only inform them. Even if there’s only a 1% change of this occurring in someone’s Pilot, I feel like they should know. It could save somebody a very costly repair by doing one or two more oil changed per year. So maybe $100/year at most to avoid a $5,800 repair. I should also post this on the Pilot specific forum.
I meant “restrain myself” more along the lines of not running up to someone’s Pilot at a stoplight to tell them to change their oil. This would cause them to say, “get away from my car you freak.” Haha.
I was low on my cost a bit in my previous post because I forgot the deductible. It will be $700 for me. $550 for the engine cost the warranty company deemed “excessive.” $100 for the deductible. Roughly $50 tax.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
How long is the warranty on the replacement engine?



12 month and 12,000 miles.
 
Originally Posted By: nmike101
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
How long is the warranty on the replacement engine?



12 month and 12,000 miles.


Well at least you have the security of that for the extra money you had to go in pocket for.
I wish you the best with everything when you get it back.
 
$700 for a "new" (only 34K!) engine with a 12/12K warranty is a pretty good deal, IMHO.

Would you have gladly paid an additional $700 at the time of purchase for the same vehicle with a 34K mile engine?

Probably?

Cheers!
 
Originally Posted By: Norm Olt
$700 for a "new" (only 34K!) engine with a 12/12K warranty is a pretty good deal, IMHO. . . . Cheers!

I agree. The OP has been made whole and then some.
 
I am very happy to read that this situation is being taken care of.
I can understand the pain of a $700 repair bill so soon, but hopefully this engine will last.
I have a feeling that it will as a high quality synthetic oil on a conservative OCI should serve this engine well.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Frankly without real numbers for the actual amount of failures I tend to think this may be more "Internet Amplification" than a real epidemic.

We never hear from the many happy owners who don't come to BITOG and obsess with the rest of us.

This site has really re-worked my opinions on Hondas for sure, though.


If this vehicle has an oil service warning light or % display that allows for idle time, I don't understand why it formed sludge. There are several possibilties, firstly is the oil in use the same as the oil used in Japan?? Secondly was the vehicle serviced correctly before it was purchased?? It is a pity that no UOA is available to see if there was coolant contamination of the oil, because anti freeze will trash the detergents very quickly which results in sludge formation, although the head gasket could have been repaired. Thirdly it might not be sludge related.
Curios to know what the piston damage was, because if the oil pressure warning light was not flickering when hot due to a blocked oil pump feed the rings should be fine. I wonder if this was a cam belt failure at low power that was badly repaired with a valve or two and a new belt, as the reported tensioner noise is odd, because it should have been changed when the belt was done. If you botch a cam belt failure repair the pistons that are damaged often cause real trouble a short time later, but adding some snake oil thickner can cover the rattle for a while.
I saw a forged cam belt service job a few months ago with a sticker copied from Google, bogus stamp in the logbook and forged dealer receipt. The belt broke at just over 100K when it was supposed to have been changed at 60K km.
 
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