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#297281 - 11/27/05 06:39 PM Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13419
Loc: Canada
A while ago in this section, a poster asked what was in Bardahl 1 oil supplement. I was curious about this too, so I went looking and found this document about it:

http://www.asiaoil.co.th/bardahl/spec/SPEC_B-1.pdf

It seems to indicate that the main ingredient is ZDDP; so I figured it was similar to STP...mainly a zinc-based anti-wear additive.

I looked further after learning how important MSDS's are to find out what is in a product, and I found it:

http://asiaoil.co.th/bardahl/msds/MSDS9100%20B-1%20OIL%20SUPPLEMENT.pdf

The thing that really caught my attention is the second ingredient..... "Lead, in the form of an organo-metallic naphthenate". Does anyone know what this compound is and what it does? I've never heard of it or seen it in another product... I know lead is a soft metal, and used by Restore to 'fill in' pitted metal....does it do the same here? Both the B-1 and B-2 additives have it in them....anyone know anything about this substance? Thanks!

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#297282 - 11/28/05 12:05 AM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13419
Loc: Canada
I decided not to be lazy, and actually found the answer to my question....from a company that sells the stuff...

Here's a brief review of the functions of this product:

Acts as an extreme pressure additive for gear oils and greases.
Acts as a lubricant inhibitor.
Serves as polar surface activating and wetting agent for lubricant to metal.
Improves film strength, oiliness, boundary lubrication, wear and lapping characteristics.
Improves anti-seize, anti-scoring, anti-gelling and anti-weld characteristics.
Serves as a rust-proofing agent.
Serves as a pour-point depressant.

More importantly, though, I found an article about the effectiveness of this product to combat wear...dunno about you, but it sounds pretty impressive:

Lead Naphthenate Additive Tribochemistry in Hydrocarbon Oils

Authors: D. J. Carre; P. A. Bertrand; J. R. Lince; AEROSPACE CORP EL SEGUNDO CA LAB OPERATIONS


Abstract: There is often ambiguity concerning the antiwear mechanisms of soluble lubricant additives used in bearings. For example, the common spacecraft lubricant additive lead naphthenate is thought to be effective only as long as a measurable concentration is present in the oil lubricant throughout the mechanism lifetime. Recent mechanism tests with several days of operation indicated that a hydrocarbon lubricant was depleted of lead naphthenate, even during successful operation. To elucidate this apparent contradiction, we conducted tests on 440C stainless-steel thrust bearings lubricated with Apiezon C hydrocarbon oil that was formulated with 5 wt% lead naphthenate. The remaining oil in the bearings was analyzed using Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR) after several tests with varying durations up to 336 h (2 wk). FTIR showed that lead naphthenate chemically changes within 24 h and begins to disappear in 336 h. X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS) was used to determine the chemical state of the bearing surfaces after testing. XPS spectra indicated that lead naphthenate chemisorbs onto the bearing surface with minimal bearing operation, and further reaction to elemental lead (a solid lubricant) occurs at relatively short interaction times (two weeks in our testing). Ball bearing test data indicate that, despite the early loss of additive from the oil, the lead- containing surface coatings provide continued lubrication for the ball bearing.

It sounds like if you mixed this with an oil that was reasonably high in moly and zddp (already in Bardahl 1 @ about 1350 ppm), you would have the perfect anti-wear oil mix....the moly and the lead 'plate' onto the metal to protect it....thoughts on this?

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#297283 - 11/28/05 12:44 AM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 12897
Loc: By Detroit
Well if all that is true and good, then I will add one other excellent quality of this stuff. Its 100C viscosity is 11 cSt, which is a solid 30 weight, so it should not appreciably affect the viscosity of any oil it is added to, from 5w20 to 20w50.

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#297284 - 11/28/05 12:30 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
Dave H Offline


Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 281
Loc: LA
Definitely interested in this information.

Dave

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#297285 - 11/28/05 07:34 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
Lead, the environweenies will revolt.
Also, you won't be able to monitor 'lead' in the UOAs for bearing issues.

Neosyntheticoil also has a high dose of lead it in.

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#297286 - 11/28/05 09:32 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13419
Loc: Canada
I wasn't really planning on doing UOA's - don't really have the money/time/place to get them done easily.....and if this stuff is even somewhat absorbing into the bearings, I'm not sure I have to worry about wear on them as much.....it seems like a pretty good protecting item for only $4.00 CAD a can.....

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#297287 - 11/28/05 10:52 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
Yeah, but a VOA of the product would help you decide whether it has enough of whatever it claims to have. Never fall for the "smoke" that comes from the marketing department.

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#297288 - 11/29/05 09:42 AM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
bruce381 Offline


Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 3324
Loc: Millbrae, CA
lead nap was very popular years ago has very high load carrying higher than ZDDP and moly, borate etc. But as I remember not counting the toxic issue it forms a lot of sludge and now if used in the USA only in grease and gear oil if at all.


bruce

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#297289 - 11/29/05 11:21 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
Compare those old oils with todays synths, blends, and SM/GF4 oils.
IMO, the only thing that formed sludge was poor maintenance habits and the low quality oil that was available back then.

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#297290 - 01/07/06 11:40 AM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
Porkchopx Offline


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
5% weight by volume lead napthenate used in the test is way more concentrated than 1350 PPM you state Bardahl has. 5% is 50000 PPM. On the other hand rocket engines do have a little more stress on them. I think using a really good quality engine oil made for the application needed will, over the life of a vehicle, always out perform entry level oils with over the counter additives mixed with them. If you are using a quality lube I think additves are overkill and may actually impede many intended performance characteristics of the oil.

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#297291 - 01/07/06 02:55 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
Ugly3 Offline


Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 2635
Loc: Chicago
The auto makers and the oil makers tell us not to use "additives". Tell you anything?

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#297292 - 01/07/06 06:01 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
TallPaul Offline


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 12897
Loc: By Detroit
Perhaps this forum should be fuel additives only and have a statement: "No oil additives discussion allowed because the auto makers tell us not to use additives." Probably don't need an oil filter forum either, since I suppose the automakers tell you to use their brand filter. Yep, and if we keep that up, we might be able to close a few forums and free up the computers for important stuff like reblending our oil, or ah, do the auto companies tell us not to do that either? Why are we here? [I dont know]

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#297293 - 01/08/06 02:17 AM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
unDummy Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 8756
Loc: RI
Oil makers and automakers say lots of things. But, in the best interest of.......?

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#297294 - 01/08/06 05:01 AM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
Porkchopx Offline


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Edmonton, Alberta
Bargain brand oil and a cheap additive package are no replacement for a quality motor oil(In my humble opinion). Thick motor oil with extra detergent, thickening agents, lubricity additives etc. and especially chlorine and PTFE used in many OTC additives are just plain bad. Motor oils are specially blended by the oil manufacturers adding more additive can really impedede an oils job. I remember an infomercial where an additive was put into a big block motor on a dino run and tested. Then the oil was supposedly completely drained and the motor preformed as well as before.
What a joke, my brother and I did this on a car we were taking to the scrap yard. It seized solid in under five minutes just idling. [crushedcar]

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#297295 - 01/17/06 10:12 PM Re: Bardahl 1 ingredient.....what is it and what does it do?
addyguy Offline


Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 13419
Loc: Canada
To address a couple of the issues raised in this post:

Porkchopx - Bardahl 1 has 1350 ppm of zinc (ZDDP), not of the lead compound. The lead compound in the product is 3-7% for the Bardahl 1 Supplement; and 0-5% for the Bardahl 2 Supplement. You are prolly right that this still indicates it has much more lead than zinc.

I agree with unDummy that with modern quality oils and reasonable OCI's, sludging should not be an issue, even with this add, as the concentration of lead is fairly low.

The characteristic of this product that intrigues me is the absorption into metal surfaces. A lot of oil adds claim to do this to prevent 'dry starts', but this compound seems to be proven to do it, by a non-automotive test. (ie, not trying to sell some 'miracle' add) If it does really absorb into bearinf surfaces, then on engines with lead-compound bearings, would this not protect and slightly 'build them up', almost guaranteeing they will never wear out? As I said in my original post, if you mixed this with a high-moly and zinc oil, you would have a mix that would resist wear very well....

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