High Flow Oil Filter

[Nathan]

I know the thing for high flow is no filter at all...but I've got a turbo Nissan and I want to get as much oil to the oil cooler as possible without the filter hampering things too much.

So, is there a type of media or brand/model of filter that is good for flow?

 

[chubbs1]

Isn't K&N known for their high flow filters?

 

[MrMeeks]

The lower priced purolator has a high rate of flow.This filter has less media than the higher cost filters and has a good bypass valve.

 

[sunfire]

And oversized filter with more media should provide more flow.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Isn't K&N known for their high flow filters?


You are thinking of their air filter. Their oil filter is based on the same Champ Labs "performance" design as the Mobil 1 EP I use. This filter is high efficiency (excellent filtration) but not high flow (I don't know of any filter that is excellent at both, as the same properties that provide better filtration also inhibit, to a degree, flow rate). The highest flow filters would tend to be the ones designed to do (relatively) lower filtration so as to minimize impact on oil flow.

I can't think of any to suggest where I go the other way and pick efficiency over flow rate.

-Spyder

 

[jorton]

There you go. Use an oversize Purolator Classic.
Gary Allen and others know which oversize filter is interchangable with your oem filter. Just post the oem filter make and model and ask for the oversize model #.

 

[boxcartommie22]

if you want a top notch filter then get a stainless steel filter. filters 100% 35u 80% 10u and flows 57 gpm. been using these for 2years or more keeps oil nice and clean...the paper oil filter companies will not tell you all the big particles that escape in a paper filter...also metal shavings will pierce through the paper....also increased oil pressure

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
I don't know of any filter that is excellent at both, as the same properties that provide better filtration also inhibit, to a degree, flow rate. The highest flow filters would tend to be the ones designed to do (relatively) lower filtration so as to minimize impact on oil flow.


The key to good filtering performance AND good flow rate is the design of the filter media AND the total area of the media. See this thread of a medium sized PureOne that flowed 12 gpm of hot oil with a 5 psid pressure drop. I don't think there are many other filters that can flow that much with any less psid. I'd think the Classic might even do a little better in the flow rate department.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

 

[jorton]

How does hot oil flow increase/decrease with engine rpm? Is flow so low at 750 rpm that there is effectively no pressure drop at the filter?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: jorton
How does hot oil flow increase/decrease with engine rpm? Is flow so low at 750 rpm that there is effectively no pressure drop at the filter?


Yes, that is true. A "positive displacement" oil pump puts out more and more volume as engine RPM increases. The oil pressure will build until the oil pump goes into "pressure relief" mode. At pressure relief, the max oil flow is going through the filter & engine for the viscosity at that time. The max delta pressure across an oil filter will always be when the oil flow is maximum. When the oil is cold, the oil pump goes into relief very quickly and the volume of oil flow going through the filter & engine is much less, but the delta pressure is still high because of the thicker oil.

So the combination of these factors determine the pressure delta (aka "psid") across an oil filter.
1) Oil viscosity
2) Oil flow volume
3) Filter media resistance to flow
4) Total flow area of the media

 

[jorton]

Good! I wouldn't want a 4 or 5 psid drop at hot idle in my older car, @ 190,000 miles.

Hmmm. What 'do' I want in a filter for an older car, @ 190,000 miles?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Isn't K&N known for their high flow filters?


You are thinking of their air filter. Their oil filter is based on the same Champ Labs "performance" design as the Mobil 1 EP I use. This filter is high efficiency (excellent filtration) but not high flow (I don't know of any filter that is excellent at both, as the same properties that provide better filtration also inhibit, to a degree, flow rate). The highest flow filters would tend to be the ones designed to do (relatively) lower filtration so as to minimize impact on oil flow.

I can't think of any to suggest where I go the other way and pick efficiency over flow rate.

-Spyder


I've seen no data to suggest that the K&N is a M1/RP clone. Visuals highly suggest the M1 and RP are just different labels, but the whole process of the K&N assembly is unique just due to the nut on the end.

That being said, all filters have the identical flow rate below the threshold of the oil pump's relief setting. The oil has no choice, and the engine will be many magnitudes higher in comparative resistance to that (as seen by the filter) series circuit. Even loaded to a decent amount ..after warm up, the filter just doesn't offer a whole bunch to the total pressure development.

Now if you're slamming up against the relief on the pump, then all filters are highly resistant to flow. That's why you have a bypass valve. That narrow range is just about all there is to talk about for most (note "most" - there are always exceptions ..terms ..and conditions)

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Isn't K&N known for their high flow filters?


You are thinking of their air filter. Their oil filter is based on the same Champ Labs "performance" design as the Mobil 1 EP I use. This filter is high efficiency (excellent filtration) but not high flow (I don't know of any filter that is excellent at both, as the same properties that provide better filtration also inhibit, to a degree, flow rate). The highest flow filters would tend to be the ones designed to do (relatively) lower filtration so as to minimize impact on oil flow.

I can't think of any to suggest where I go the other way and pick efficiency over flow rate.

-Spyder


I've seen no data to suggest that the K&N is a M1/RP clone. Visuals highly suggest the M1 and RP are just different labels, but the whole process of the K&N assembly is unique just due to the nut on the end.

That being said, all filters have the identical flow rate below the threshold of the oil pump's relief setting. The oil has no choice, and the engine will be many magnitudes higher in comparative resistance to that (as seen by the filter) series circuit. Even loaded to a decent amount ..after warm up, the filter just doesn't offer a whole bunch to the total pressure development.

Now if you're slamming up against the relief on the pump, then all filters are highly resistant to flow. That's why you have a bypass valve. That narrow range is just about all there is to talk about for most (note "most" - there are always exceptions ..terms ..and conditions)


I didn't mention the RP filter (I'm not familiar with it). Unless something's changed recently over at K&N, both it and the M1 EP use the same "performance" design from Champion Labs.

-Spyder

 

[postjeeprcr]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Spyder7
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
Isn't K&N known for their high flow filters?


You are thinking of their air filter. Their oil filter is based on the same Champ Labs "performance" design as the Mobil 1 EP I use. This filter is high efficiency (excellent filtration) but not high flow (I don't know of any filter that is excellent at both, as the same properties that provide better filtration also inhibit, to a degree, flow rate). The highest flow filters would tend to be the ones designed to do (relatively) lower filtration so as to minimize impact on oil flow.

I can't think of any to suggest where I go the other way and pick efficiency over flow rate.

-Spyder


I've seen no data to suggest that the K&N is a M1/RP clone. Visuals highly suggest the M1 and RP are just different labels, but the whole process of the K&N assembly is unique just due to the nut on the end.

That being said, all filters have the identical flow rate below the threshold of the oil pump's relief setting. The oil has no choice, and the engine will be many magnitudes higher in comparative resistance to that (as seen by the filter) series circuit. Even loaded to a decent amount ..after warm up, the filter just doesn't offer a whole bunch to the total pressure development.

Now if you're slamming up against the relief on the pump, then all filters are highly resistant to flow. That's why you have a bypass valve. That narrow range is just about all there is to talk about for most (note "most" - there are always exceptions ..terms ..and conditions)


I have seen no data that K&N and M1 are different. The M1 and RP are not just different labels, they are different on the inside of the can.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I didn't mention the RP filter (I'm not familiar with it). Unless something's changed recently over at K&N, both it and the M1 EP use the same "performance" design from Champion Labs.



How do you know this to be true? What I'm asking for is your authoritative source. While never seeing bona fide data on either in terms of beta or bench flow tests, the K&N has been promoted as a "performance" filter ..the M1, otoh, has been promoted as an "endurance" filter. I'm sure that there is more than one advanced media from Champ Labs.


There's a few misconceptions about how media is rated vs. how it's marketed ...or rather how a given media is rated gives false impressions of its performance.

A filters filtering performance operates on a curve up to the limits of its holding capacity. They don't come out of the box at the marketed rating level.

 

[Spyder7]

This site: http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/

Its one of the better comparisons I've seen. There are also others that cite the K&N and Mobil 1 as being made by Champion Labs.

From the link:

"Interestingly, two performance filter brands that are manufactured by Champion Labs still use the old design. They are Mobil 1 and K&N. Examples of each purchased in 2008 were not "Ecore" filters."

I never mentioned RP in the post you quoted.

Edit: The Mobil 1 EP is not just marketed as an "endurance" filter. It is also marketed as a performance filter. From their own site:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance Oil Filters

* Designed for today's longer service intervals.
* Removes more contaminants than conventional filters using an advanced synthetic fiber blend filter media.
* High-capacity design stores more contaminants (two times the capacity of the leading brand).
* Reduces resistance to oil flow while improving filter efficiency.
* Withstands up to five times the normal system operating pressure.

To me that reads like high performance marketing. Especially when you look at its efficiency: "Mobil 1 Extended Performance Oil Filters contain synthetic fibers instead of the typical cellulose filter media. With a 99.2 percent efficiency rating (under SAE J1858 Multi-Pass Efficiency Test), the Mobil 1 filter is much more efficient than a typical oil filter, removing more particles per pass through the filter. In addition, the synthetic fibers in the Mobil 1 filter have less resistance to oil flow, reducing the potential for the filter to restrict the flow of oil to your engine." (also from their site)

-Spyder

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
This site: http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/

Its one of the better comparisons I've seen. There are also others that cite the K&N and Mobil 1 as being made by Champion Labs
You should be prepared to be flamed. While it is one of the original dissections and has been updated in 08, some of the filtration commentary has been judged as dubious by some here.

OTOH, river_rats testing on this board did seem to show the K&N and M1 as very similar in construction, with the K&N slightly favoring flow, and the M1 favoring filtration. However, on another current thread regarding the K&N, someone emailed Champ and the response was they are the same with the exception of the nut on the K&N.

And, as for the M1 efficiency rating while they give a percent, they don't list a micron rating level, just a procedure that was followed. That said, I wouldn't have a problem using either filter, except the cost for usage and my average OCI don't make them cost effective for me. IMO, both quality filters though.

 

[Spyder7]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Quote:
This site: http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/

Its one of the better comparisons I've seen. There are also others that cite the K&N and Mobil 1 as being made by Champion Labs
You should be prepared to be flamed. While it is one of the original dissections and has been updated in 08, some of the filtration commentary has been judged as dubious by some here.

OTOH, river_rats testing on this board did seem to show the K&N and M1 as very similar in construction, with the K&N slightly favoring flow, and the M1 favoring filtration. However, on another current thread regarding the K&N, someone emailed Champ and the response was they are the same with the exception of the nut on the K&N.

And, as for the M1 efficiency rating while they give a percent, they don't list a micron rating level, just a procedure that was followed. That said, I wouldn't have a problem using either filter, except the cost for usage and my average OCI don't make them cost effective for me. IMO, both quality filters though.


It satisfies the two issues he raised: it provides a link, with dissection pics, showing that both are based on the same performance model by Champ; second, it shows that Mobil is not marketing it simply as an "endurance" filter, but also as a performance filter.

I don't write the marketing, I just copied and pasted it. Any issues regarding the quotes taken from Mobil's website can be addressed to them, via the "Contact Us" link on their website.

-Spyder

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

Now if you're slamming up against the relief on the pump, then all filters are highly resistant to flow. That's why you have a bypass valve. That narrow range is just about all there is to talk about for most (note "most" - there are always exceptions ..terms ..and conditions)


I wouldn't say all filters are "highly resistant to flow" ... even when the oil pump is putting out max flow to the filter & engine (ie, meaning the oil pump is in pressure relief).

What I would say is that when the oil pump is in pressure relief is when the most pressure drop occurs across an oil filter because that is the condition where the oil flow volume is maximized. Most good flowing oil filters will produce about 4 to 6 psid with hot oil (200 deg F, 5w-30) at max flow volume, which means the bypass valve should never open when the oil is hot unless the filter is super loaded up and clogging.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Its one of the better comparisons I've seen.


In your opinion of an amateur presentations? I'll agree. The photos are top notch and the site is well constructed.

Unfortunately you never saw Grease's filter study where one member, who is an engineer at PALL Filtration put a bunch of filters through a battery of tests. Swatches of media tested for flow at given pressures, bubble machine testing, etc. I really wish I had saved the pages. Not so much for the content, which could be subject to change, but for the legit procedural techniques used in testing.

Quote:
Interestingly, two performance filter brands that are manufactured by Champion Labs still use the old design. They are Mobil 1 and K&N. Examples of each purchased in 2008 were not "Ecore" filters."


This is opinion based on ..what? Visual observation? I saw Big Foot and he resembles Charlton Heston as depicted in the remake of The Planet of the Apes. I posted it on the internet ..and you can quote me.

Quote:
I never mentioned RP in the post you quoted.


With a real big smile on my face ..and kindly asked ..are you a "rhyme and meter" anal retentive nitpicker? Does it really make any difference the I (big EYE sound) put RP in with M1 ..which totally appears to be an identical filter?

Quote:
Edit: The Mobil 1 EP is not just marketed as an "endurance" filter. It is also marketed as a performance filter. From their own site:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance Oil Filters

* Designed for today's longer service intervals.
* Removes more contaminants than conventional filters using an advanced synthetic fiber blend filter media.
* High-capacity design stores more contaminants (two times the capacity of the leading brand).
* Reduces resistance to oil flow while improving filter efficiency.
* Withstands up to five times the normal system operating pressure.


Will 3 out of 5 points in the marketing presentation work? The FIRST 3 out of 5

Quote:
To me that reads like high performance marketing.


Well, it depends on your context of "high performance". Are you talking the filter or the application that it's installed on? Sure the filter "performs" well. Is it intended for HIGH PERFORMANCE use? ..and I'll even say that it can be BOTH ..but that's not the question. What do you mean?

Fram's HP line are poorly filtering high performance filters. You're not putting M1 in with them, are you?

Now look at the K&N marketing. Only someone ignoring the company's target market could possibly NOT see that it's intended for the (would be) street rodding crowd.



..and, again, you may in fact be correct. It's just that there's been absolutely no bona fide evidence that the M1 and K&N are merely different cans with the same internals (media). I would hope for someone other than the tech line phone sitter just getting on to the next phone call to fill in his day.