dirty oil can stretch timing chain?
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If the oil was so bad that it wore out the timing chain then the rest of the engine would be ruined too.
Timing chain is made from tough stuff vs lead and copper bearings. Sounds like a dealer trying to get out of warranty work.
Timing chain is made from tough stuff vs lead and copper bearings. Sounds like a dealer trying to get out of warranty work.
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Originally Posted By: HyperJinx
Dirty oil stretch a timing chain? ahahahahhahaha
You'd be amazed at some of the stupid things people will say to try to say to [censored] a customer. I worked for this jerk that would tell potential buyers that when our dealership certified cars the shop would pull the cylinder heads to check for sludge. No kidding!!! On one occasion a customer and his wife got up and walked out. This jerk then asked me what went wrong. I was minding my business reading the paper, wondering how this fool made manager. I told him, next time you [censored] a customer at least know what you're talking about. Glad I left that place!
Dirty oil stretch a timing chain? ahahahahhahaha
You'd be amazed at some of the stupid things people will say to try to say to [censored] a customer. I worked for this jerk that would tell potential buyers that when our dealership certified cars the shop would pull the cylinder heads to check for sludge. No kidding!!! On one occasion a customer and his wife got up and walked out. This jerk then asked me what went wrong. I was minding my business reading the paper, wondering how this fool made manager. I told him, next time you [censored] a customer at least know what you're talking about. Glad I left that place!
With the cheapest oil possible many dealers use, I'm not even sure what off brand oil we're using, we just switched to whoever was cheapest this year. Along with the cheapest filters possible it's conceivable that going 12k would cause the chain to "strech" but only if it's a overhead cam engine with a long chain, even then I wouldn't expect enough wear to occur in 12k unless it happens repeatedly with low quality oil/filters.
You rarely see problems on ohv engines due to the short length of the chain, any wear that does occur doesn't really add up to that much. But I've changed countless timing chains on vehicles still under base warranty for timing chain rattles, almost exclusively on poorly maintained vehicles. It doesn't really matter which manufacturer, over the last 10 years in dealerships I've seen it on Saturns, Hondas, Hyundais, Kias, and Chrysler products.
You rarely see problems on ohv engines due to the short length of the chain, any wear that does occur doesn't really add up to that much. But I've changed countless timing chains on vehicles still under base warranty for timing chain rattles, almost exclusively on poorly maintained vehicles. It doesn't really matter which manufacturer, over the last 10 years in dealerships I've seen it on Saturns, Hondas, Hyundais, Kias, and Chrysler products.
Customer should have asked the service mgr to save the "stretched" chain, so that he or she could ship it to GM for insp...which is total [censored]. But it would be fun to see the service mgr back-pedel and make up another story!
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The customer wouldn't be given the chain as it or any other part replaced under warranty has to be saved for warranty inspection. Generally any part replaced within the first year will be called back by the warranty department unless it's considered a known issue, in which case they save the hassle and assume it was an actual failure.
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Originally Posted By: Chris142
Sounds like a dealer trying to get out of warranty work.
What is dumb is that it will almost for sure be taken care of by warranty.
And so it is their dopey diagnosis that further reinforces the stereotype that dealerships don't provide quality service. And as I indicated, even though the repair will be covered under warranty, would you trust this same dealership to do such an involved repair when their analysis of the original problem is almost for sure incorrect. That is, the ngine may need a new timing chain but it is not due to the condition of the oil.
Sounds like a dealer trying to get out of warranty work.
What is dumb is that it will almost for sure be taken care of by warranty.
And so it is their dopey diagnosis that further reinforces the stereotype that dealerships don't provide quality service. And as I indicated, even though the repair will be covered under warranty, would you trust this same dealership to do such an involved repair when their analysis of the original problem is almost for sure incorrect. That is, the ngine may need a new timing chain but it is not due to the condition of the oil.
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hehehehehe.....
Originally Posted By: 21Rouge
I noticed a current thread on an automotive forum in which the customer brought in their 09 car due to a check engine light. The customer was told that the reason for the light was a malfunctioning oil life sensor. (The car showed 10% on the GM OLM with an OCI of 12k miles). Furthermore they said this oil was dirty enough that it caused the timing chain to stretch and would of course need to be replaced.
Is this scenario possible?
My Cobalt will run 8 to 9K on the OLM so even if the OLM broke 12K is not out of the question. Yes dirty oil will cause the engine to wear faster (including the timing chain). But this looks like it is all on GM, for what ever reason the part failed.
I want to take a minute and a few things said in other posts. Timing chains on OHV and flathead motors do wear/stretch timing chains much faster than you might think. I have run in many small block chevys, big block chevys, small block fords, small and big block olds, small block mopars and pontiac V8's on my run stand and ALL shown significant wear on the timing sets after only one hours run time. These are mostly milodon and cloyes timing sets, some others have been used over the years all with the same outcome.
I noticed a current thread on an automotive forum in which the customer brought in their 09 car due to a check engine light. The customer was told that the reason for the light was a malfunctioning oil life sensor. (The car showed 10% on the GM OLM with an OCI of 12k miles). Furthermore they said this oil was dirty enough that it caused the timing chain to stretch and would of course need to be replaced.
Is this scenario possible?
My Cobalt will run 8 to 9K on the OLM so even if the OLM broke 12K is not out of the question. Yes dirty oil will cause the engine to wear faster (including the timing chain). But this looks like it is all on GM, for what ever reason the part failed.
I want to take a minute and a few things said in other posts. Timing chains on OHV and flathead motors do wear/stretch timing chains much faster than you might think. I have run in many small block chevys, big block chevys, small block fords, small and big block olds, small block mopars and pontiac V8's on my run stand and ALL shown significant wear on the timing sets after only one hours run time. These are mostly milodon and cloyes timing sets, some others have been used over the years all with the same outcome.
This chain stretch business IS a real problem on the newer GM 3.6 engines. Techs and SAs have reported that a simple oil change on these engines will quiet the engine down significantly, so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
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Quote:
so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
No. It's a chain problem that's coped with an oil change.
Engine #1: 350k with OEM timing chain within max slack spec
Engine #2: Stretching to the point of issue early in life.
Oil being identical between the two (they're not the same engine design).
What's the problem?
so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
No. It's a chain problem that's coped with an oil change.
Engine #1: 350k with OEM timing chain within max slack spec
Engine #2: Stretching to the point of issue early in life.
Oil being identical between the two (they're not the same engine design).
What's the problem?
Originally Posted By: The Critic
This chain stretch business IS a real problem on the newer GM 3.6 engines. Techs and SAs have reported that a simple oil change on these engines will quiet the engine down significantly, so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
*IF* and I think it is a big IF, that oil condition contributes to this expensive repair why wouldn't GM either change the OLM software for this engine or come out with some new directive re the maximum OCI? But no, official GM has remained silent.
This chain stretch business IS a real problem on the newer GM 3.6 engines. Techs and SAs have reported that a simple oil change on these engines will quiet the engine down significantly, so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
*IF* and I think it is a big IF, that oil condition contributes to this expensive repair why wouldn't GM either change the OLM software for this engine or come out with some new directive re the maximum OCI? But no, official GM has remained silent.
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Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
No. It's a chain problem that's coped with an oil change.
Engine #1: 350k with OEM timing chain within max slack spec
Engine #2: Stretching to the point of issue early in life.
Oil being identical between the two.
What's the problem?
Engine #1 was probably not equipped with an OLM and was probably doing 3,000 to 5,000 mile oil changes. The 350k mile engine was also not a fuel diluting, oil shearing monster where oil is often torn up after only a few thousand miles.
Running 10,000 mile intervals on current conventional oil in these GM 3.6DI engines may lead to negative consequences in the long-run.
Quote:
so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
No. It's a chain problem that's coped with an oil change.
Engine #1: 350k with OEM timing chain within max slack spec
Engine #2: Stretching to the point of issue early in life.
Oil being identical between the two.
What's the problem?
Engine #1 was probably not equipped with an OLM and was probably doing 3,000 to 5,000 mile oil changes. The 350k mile engine was also not a fuel diluting, oil shearing monster where oil is often torn up after only a few thousand miles.
Running 10,000 mile intervals on current conventional oil in these GM 3.6DI engines may lead to negative consequences in the long-run.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
The 350k mile engine was also not a fuel diluting, oil shearing monster where oil is often torn up after only a few thousand miles.
Running 10,000 mile intervals on current conventional oil in these GM 3.6DI engines may lead to negative consequences in the long-run.
All these are reasons that this engine should require a 4718 rated oil. This of course isnt the whole solution but is a first step.
The 350k mile engine was also not a fuel diluting, oil shearing monster where oil is often torn up after only a few thousand miles.
Running 10,000 mile intervals on current conventional oil in these GM 3.6DI engines may lead to negative consequences in the long-run.
All these are reasons that this engine should require a 4718 rated oil. This of course isnt the whole solution but is a first step.
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I know most new cars have timing chain and most has an auto tensioner. Most of the auto tensioner are driven by oil and springs. I do not know if the guy who was telling was thinking this, but this could be an issue. If the auto tensioner does have enough pressure, it is not able to tension the chain correctly. When the chain is loose, it slaps around making it wear out quicker and deform. This has been a known issue with k20 engine for honda.
exactly what The Critic said.
the problem has been there since 2005 in the 3.6l GM engines.
the problem has been there since 2005 in the 3.6l GM engines.
Originally Posted By: Spykem4e
the problem has been there since 2005 in the 3.6l GM engines.
Again I ask:
If it (timing chain malfunction due to the condition of the engine oil) has been statistically significant for 5 years then why in all that time has GM not adjusted the OLM sofware for each subsequent MY since 05? That sounds like an easy inexpensive fix.
the problem has been there since 2005 in the 3.6l GM engines.
Again I ask:
If it (timing chain malfunction due to the condition of the engine oil) has been statistically significant for 5 years then why in all that time has GM not adjusted the OLM sofware for each subsequent MY since 05? That sounds like an easy inexpensive fix.
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Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
No. It's a chain problem that's coped with an oil change.
Engine #1: 350k with OEM timing chain within max slack spec
Engine #2: Stretching to the point of issue early in life.
Oil being identical between the two.
What's the problem?
Engine #1 was probably not equipped with an OLM and was probably doing 3,000 to 5,000 mile oil changes. The 350k mile engine was also not a fuel diluting, oil shearing monster where oil is often torn up after only a few thousand miles.
Running 10,000 mile intervals on current conventional oil in these GM 3.6DI engines may lead to negative consequences in the long-run.
Ah, but allegedly according to our own resident (briefly) GM engine testing technical guru (bbobynski) this should have all been factored into the process.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130036#Post130036
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
so obviously oil is related to the problem in some way.
No. It's a chain problem that's coped with an oil change.
Engine #1: 350k with OEM timing chain within max slack spec
Engine #2: Stretching to the point of issue early in life.
Oil being identical between the two.
What's the problem?
Engine #1 was probably not equipped with an OLM and was probably doing 3,000 to 5,000 mile oil changes. The 350k mile engine was also not a fuel diluting, oil shearing monster where oil is often torn up after only a few thousand miles.
Running 10,000 mile intervals on current conventional oil in these GM 3.6DI engines may lead to negative consequences in the long-run.
Ah, but allegedly according to our own resident (briefly) GM engine testing technical guru (bbobynski) this should have all been factored into the process.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130036#Post130036
I don't believe that the steel chain is stretching.
It is wearing, as are the gears. This accumulates to a longer chain from looser parts.
Fresh oil will always better than dirty oil with abrasive particulate matter and depleted additives.
Is the chain system on this car substandard? Seems so.
It is wearing, as are the gears. This accumulates to a longer chain from looser parts.
Fresh oil will always better than dirty oil with abrasive particulate matter and depleted additives.
Is the chain system on this car substandard? Seems so.
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