HTHSv and xw30 vs xw40 choice
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Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
It might be worth saying that the KO30 shear test isn't used on US PCMOs for the simple reason that the great majority of US oils would fail the test! The US differs greatly from Europe in that you use highly shearable 50 SSI VIs. These are very cheap and great for passing fuel economy tests but otherwise they are pretty useless. I'm sure this situation only endures in the US because you change your oil so frequently.
You'd be surprised at what some people do with these cheap oils even in Euro vehicles. The following is not something I would do but it seems to work for the following poster. Maybe the narrow spread of 5w20 and the ensuing lack of VII is working for him too
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had my E430 FF drained at more than 13k miles, passed the oil life monitor by several hundreds miles.
The engine is running good at 170+k miles, it doesn't consume measurable oil between OCI's, even with much thinner oil such as PP 5W20.
One time I used the Mahle cartridge oil filter for 2 OCI's of 10k each, the filter condition after 20k miles was almost as new. The filter holder of my E430 is almost as clean as the one in your picture.
I think a good synthetic in an MB engine can lasted up to 15-20k miles under non-severe driving condition. Since the average speed in US is much slower than in European countries, most of the times we don't drive too fast and RPM on highway is usually below 2.5-3k.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used PP 5W20 in my E430. The oil spec is A3/B3 and M1 0W40 is on 229.3-229.5. With PP 5W20 in crankcase I drove to Vegas in July 2008, got stuck at Death Valley for 3 hours with temperature above 120F. Engine was/is fine with PP 5W20.
It might be worth saying that the KO30 shear test isn't used on US PCMOs for the simple reason that the great majority of US oils would fail the test! The US differs greatly from Europe in that you use highly shearable 50 SSI VIs. These are very cheap and great for passing fuel economy tests but otherwise they are pretty useless. I'm sure this situation only endures in the US because you change your oil so frequently.
You'd be surprised at what some people do with these cheap oils even in Euro vehicles. The following is not something I would do but it seems to work for the following poster. Maybe the narrow spread of 5w20 and the ensuing lack of VII is working for him too
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had my E430 FF drained at more than 13k miles, passed the oil life monitor by several hundreds miles.
The engine is running good at 170+k miles, it doesn't consume measurable oil between OCI's, even with much thinner oil such as PP 5W20.
One time I used the Mahle cartridge oil filter for 2 OCI's of 10k each, the filter condition after 20k miles was almost as new. The filter holder of my E430 is almost as clean as the one in your picture.
I think a good synthetic in an MB engine can lasted up to 15-20k miles under non-severe driving condition. Since the average speed in US is much slower than in European countries, most of the times we don't drive too fast and RPM on highway is usually below 2.5-3k.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used PP 5W20 in my E430. The oil spec is A3/B3 and M1 0W40 is on 229.3-229.5. With PP 5W20 in crankcase I drove to Vegas in July 2008, got stuck at Death Valley for 3 hours with temperature above 120F. Engine was/is fine with PP 5W20.
Nope, not Castrol either...
I think I'm cheating because of what you said elsewhere, but I'm going to guess Total.
Nope, not Total either. In fact it's not any of the oil companies.
The sad reality is that (and this is only my opinion), none of the oil companies have any genuine oil formulation expertise anymore. They have as a matter of policy shed staff positions, pensioned off there experienced old hands and shut R&D labs. The people they do retain are often limited to developing 'marketing' stuff.
The real expertise these days resides in the hands of the additive companies. There are only four of them. I used to work for one of the four. If you have Google Maps, I'm sure you could hazard a guess which one but I'd rather not say because I prefer off the radar.
The sad reality is that (and this is only my opinion), none of the oil companies have any genuine oil formulation expertise anymore. They have as a matter of policy shed staff positions, pensioned off there experienced old hands and shut R&D labs. The people they do retain are often limited to developing 'marketing' stuff.
The real expertise these days resides in the hands of the additive companies. There are only four of them. I used to work for one of the four. If you have Google Maps, I'm sure you could hazard a guess which one but I'd rather not say because I prefer off the radar.
Originally Posted By: Benito
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
It might be worth saying that the KO30 shear test isn't used on US PCMOs for the simple reason that the great majority of US oils would fail the test! The US differs greatly from Europe in that you use highly shearable 50 SSI VIs. These are very cheap and great for passing fuel economy tests but otherwise they are pretty useless. I'm sure this situation only endures in the US because you change your oil so frequently.
You'd be surprised at what some people do with these cheap oils even in Euro vehicles. The following is not something I would do but it seems to work for the following poster. Maybe the narrow spread of 5w20 and the ensuing lack of VII is working for him too
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had my E430 FF drained at more than 13k miles, passed the oil life monitor by several hundreds miles.
The engine is running good at 170+k miles, it doesn't consume measurable oil between OCI's, even with much thinner oil such as PP 5W20.
One time I used the Mahle cartridge oil filter for 2 OCI's of 10k each, the filter condition after 20k miles was almost as new. The filter holder of my E430 is almost as clean as the one in your picture.
I think a good synthetic in an MB engine can lasted up to 15-20k miles under non-severe driving condition. Since the average speed in US is much slower than in European countries, most of the times we don't drive too fast and RPM on highway is usually below 2.5-3k.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used PP 5W20 in my E430. The oil spec is A3/B3 and M1 0W40 is on 229.3-229.5. With PP 5W20 in crankcase I drove to Vegas in July 2008, got stuck at Death Valley for 3 hours with temperature above 120F. Engine was/is fine with PP 5W20.
If the oilhas an ACEA rating, it's likely formulated with the low shear viscosity improvers.
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
It might be worth saying that the KO30 shear test isn't used on US PCMOs for the simple reason that the great majority of US oils would fail the test! The US differs greatly from Europe in that you use highly shearable 50 SSI VIs. These are very cheap and great for passing fuel economy tests but otherwise they are pretty useless. I'm sure this situation only endures in the US because you change your oil so frequently.
You'd be surprised at what some people do with these cheap oils even in Euro vehicles. The following is not something I would do but it seems to work for the following poster. Maybe the narrow spread of 5w20 and the ensuing lack of VII is working for him too
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I had my E430 FF drained at more than 13k miles, passed the oil life monitor by several hundreds miles.
The engine is running good at 170+k miles, it doesn't consume measurable oil between OCI's, even with much thinner oil such as PP 5W20.
One time I used the Mahle cartridge oil filter for 2 OCI's of 10k each, the filter condition after 20k miles was almost as new. The filter holder of my E430 is almost as clean as the one in your picture.
I think a good synthetic in an MB engine can lasted up to 15-20k miles under non-severe driving condition. Since the average speed in US is much slower than in European countries, most of the times we don't drive too fast and RPM on highway is usually below 2.5-3k.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I used PP 5W20 in my E430. The oil spec is A3/B3 and M1 0W40 is on 229.3-229.5. With PP 5W20 in crankcase I drove to Vegas in July 2008, got stuck at Death Valley for 3 hours with temperature above 120F. Engine was/is fine with PP 5W20.
If the oilhas an ACEA rating, it's likely formulated with the low shear viscosity improvers.
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
If you have Google Maps, I'm sure you could hazard a guess which one but I'd rather not say because I prefer off the radar.
I don't blame you. I keep things somewhat hazy, too. I don't like to be seen as bashing or shilling decent products.
So, you mean that certain oil companies in North America having a dozen different completely interchangeable varieties of SN/GF-5 5w-30 oils isn't really amazing R&D, it's just marketing?
If you have Google Maps, I'm sure you could hazard a guess which one but I'd rather not say because I prefer off the radar.
I don't blame you. I keep things somewhat hazy, too. I don't like to be seen as bashing or shilling decent products.
So, you mean that certain oil companies in North America having a dozen different completely interchangeable varieties of SN/GF-5 5w-30 oils isn't really amazing R&D, it's just marketing?
It's just my opinion (I have to say this to keep the lawyers off my back) but sadly yes, a lot of it is just marketing.
To me, engine oil is a industrial fluid. It needs to be designed logically to fulfill it's intended performance in the most cost-efficient way possible.
To other people it's no different to toothpaste! It has to have unique selling pointss, market niches, target customers and pricing points. As often as not, the marketing message will be backed up by some spurious, bonkers test that no-one else has access to.
Invariably all this does is over-complicate things, over-specify things and make oils far more expensive than they need to be.
Sad really...
To me, engine oil is a industrial fluid. It needs to be designed logically to fulfill it's intended performance in the most cost-efficient way possible.
To other people it's no different to toothpaste! It has to have unique selling pointss, market niches, target customers and pricing points. As often as not, the marketing message will be backed up by some spurious, bonkers test that no-one else has access to.
Invariably all this does is over-complicate things, over-specify things and make oils far more expensive than they need to be.
Sad really...
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Well, my point has always been that there's nothing wrong with having more than one variety of SN/GF-5 5w-30 for instance, as long as you've got some differentiation, particularly with respect to longer drains, as we see with Mobil conventional versus M1 versus M1 EP, and with Castrol tiers. Some don't see the benefit to marketing a longer drain oil.
All the ACEA oils are long drain though, so not much use here.
Interestingly, I just discovered that the PAO version of M1 0w40 had an HTHSv of 3.6.
Last page on this document: http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=695007
Last page on this document: http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=695007
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Originally Posted By: Benito
Interestingly, I just discovered that the PAO version of M1 0w40 had an HTHSv of 3.6.
Last page on this document: http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=695007
Yup, and the product has changed several times since that document too. It is quite interesting to watch the evolution of that product.
Interestingly, I just discovered that the PAO version of M1 0w40 had an HTHSv of 3.6.
Last page on this document: http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=695007
Yup, and the product has changed several times since that document too. It is quite interesting to watch the evolution of that product.
3.6 HTHS is rather poor for a 40 weight. it's what a 30 weight should have
Perhaps, but not in North America. Most 0w-30, 5w-30, and 10w-30 options over here are relegated to ILSAC type HTHS values of the minimum (i.e. 2.9) up to about 3.2.
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