Help! Dealer flushed my engine with ATF

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
It's catch-22 here. You can push the issue of engine replacement, but the dealership may just make a claim against their insurance and if they do that, all they are responsible for is make it "whole" as you were before. That can mean them getting a junkyard engine with like or less miles, does not necessarily mean they will put a new or even rebuild one in it.



I'd ask for a crate engine.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

I'd ask for a crate engine.

You ask for anything you want, but you may not get it. My point is if this gets elevated their liability is only to make as he was before, insurance many times would only approve a like engine at or around the mileage he has.

 

[FutureDoc]

Yeah, it is best to work with both the dealer and the manufacturer in a nice and polite manner. It is the dealer's fault but GM should help out and make sure that the dealer does the right thing. After all, it is the Chevy logo on the dealer's business. I think a "new engine" is a bit of a stretch, mostly because there is no immediate sign of damage... but an extended warranty in the event something shows up that may be related to the action is reasonable.


I had a lesser item with Subaru (which tends to be a lot better with owners than GM's pound sand approach). Dealer was a little hesitant about doing the right thing, a quick call to SOA (Subaru), SOA contacted the dealer and the dealer changed their tune. It wasn't as big of an issue but it was an employee making a small mistake and not following up. It happens.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
And how do you know no journal bearings, or crankshafts, or camshafts, or cylinders were scored? Most ATs have a majority of needle bearings and/or roller bearings, not journal bearings.

Journal bearings surf on hydrodynamic oil films, and the ATF fluid would do that similar to engine oil, so I don't agree with your worry there. Again, for a short 40 mile run like that, the phosphorous AW additives in ATF would perform at some level.

Its an interesting situation. I hear MolaKule concerned about the lack of the usual set of AW additives in engine oil creating problems when mostly hydrodynamic conditions are involved. ????? (I guess he capitulated on the concern about rust or dispersancy over only 40 miles, so thats not an issue.) I'd think AW additives (ZDDP, boron) only work in boundary or mixed lubrication, and the general physics of surfing is prevalent to prevent wear. And those cam lobes and rings which do see significant BL/mixed lubrication would be using the phosphorous in ATF fluid to some extent.

What really would have been 'interesting' is if the owner would have just kept driving to see what happened.

 

[hattaresguy]

Realistically its probably fine.

That's a very old school way of cleaning out a sludged up motor.

Change the oil twice, than do a third pretty quick say within 2k miles, and it will all be out. Send a sample out to Blackstone if your worried but I suspect its fine.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
That's a very old school way of cleaning out a sludged up motor.

Has this method actually been proven to be effective? Or is it just one of those "supposed to" but nobody has any proof?

 

[hattaresguy]

Yeah back in the 20's to oh probably the 60/70's it wasn't unusual to clean out the crank case with some ATF or kerosene.

In the manuals of a number of vehicles in the teens, twenties, and thirties crankcase cleaning was called for on a fairly regular basis. You also could thin the oil out with a bit of kerosene in the winter if needed.

You also have to remember that they were using non detergent straight weight oil, some had a splash lubrication system, and they called for oil changes well under 1k miles. I believe cars like Duesenberg and Mercedes which were at the cutting edge of technology called for oil changes around 600 miles, and I think Mercedes wanted the Kompressor oil done more frequently. ATF was vastly different as well.

Like I said its very old school.


In 2015 with modern oils, ATF's, and engines its about as relevant as 6 volt electrical systems and using a hand crank.

 

[IndyIan]

Maybe if GM doesn't deal on replacing the engine, since its "fine", you could ask them to trade the truck in right then for an equivalent or better truck on the lot? For free of course. Let them take the long term risk if they insist its non-existent.

 

[maximus]

This isn't going to be what you want to hear. Its going to be very difficult and expensive to compel a court to award you a judgement unless you can prove the ATF caused damage and the carelessness of the shop was a direct factor in doing so. There's not much you can do and little if any evidence at this point. If the engine starts knocking and smoking in a couple months, you might have something. Courts go by evidence. Right now all you have is some paperwork documenting the incident. The engine hasn't sustained any damage that you can directly observe.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: maximus
This isn't going to be what you want to hear. Its going to be very difficult and expensive to compel a court to award you a judgement unless you can prove the ATF caused damage and the carelessness of the shop was a direct factor in doing so. There's not much you can do and little if any evidence at this point. If the engine starts knocking and smoking in a couple months, you might have something. Courts go by evidence. Right now all you have is some paperwork documenting the incident.


Exactly a dealer isn't going to fork over a new engine for an engine that "might" be damaged. A court is not going to rule for an engine that "might" be damaged. I would push for an extended warranty, since the other option would probably be impossible to get unless the engine blows or starts acting up.

 

[maximus]

He would have to prove that he incurred a loss as a result of the shop's negligence.

About the only thing he could be comped for is lost time and possibly wages while his vehicle was being flatbeded back to the shop.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: maximus
He would have to prove that he incurred a loss as a result of the shop's negligence.

About the only thing he could be comped for is lost time and possibly wages while his vehicle was being flatbeded back to the shop.


Exactly.

The OP said this:

Originally Posted By: Lutzy
but it seems fine. No Power loss, smoke or oil pressure issues. Motor has 61K on it. I just wish someone could tell me if this will damage the engine.


While the potential for something to go wrong exists, nothing has happened yet, and nothing may happen. He is not going to get a settlement based on what might happen.

OP see if you can push for some kind of extended warranty. Good luck!

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: maximus
He would have to prove that he incurred a loss as a result of the shop's negligence.

About the only thing he could be comped for is lost time and possibly wages while his vehicle was being flatbeded back to the shop.

You should try to trade in a truck at a dealer with ATF in the crankcase for only 40 miles and see what they give you? Probably they would refuse to take it at all, or take off much more than replacing the engine cost.

 

[Lightninrod]

Just another reason to watch as they start to put a fluid into your engine. I use an independent oil change shop(not Jiffy Lube) and I stand in front of the Jeep and watch the filter change and new oil added. The mech in the pit holds up the old filter and its gasket. Then he holds up the new filter and shows its new gasket to me and the mech getting ready to add the oil.

Dan

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina


...Its an interesting situation. I hear MolaKule concerned about the lack of the usual set of AW additives in engine oil creating problems when mostly hydrodynamic conditions are involved. ?????...


That wasn't me. Your memory is failing.

I have stated that engine oils with low zddp have secondary low-ash or no-ash AW additives, such as special polymers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERrwjR4ZlfI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7f9hsFrKUY

Hydrodynamic operation is there at idle and light loads, but not during heavy loading or at extremely high temperatures.

That's why you have those AW boundary lube additives in the addpack.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Has this method actually been proven to be effective? Or is it just one of those "supposed to" but nobody has any proof?


Whoa! Slow your roll there Quattro Pete. Facts and proof on a board where 90% of what is posted is based on "feelings" and anecdotal evidence will have you branded a heretic.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27


You don't raise a sh*tstorm in a place of business without consequences.
If you were lucky, you'd be "escorted" out by a couple of dealer employees. The real techs are quite strong, since they do manual labor all day long every day.
If you were less lucky, you'd be cruising to the city joint in the back of a CVPI in cuffs.
No new engine for you either way.
In the case of the OP, it sounds as though no harm was done.
GM will also not get involved in a dealer servicing error, nor should they.
If a problem develops, which it probably won't, it'll be between the OP and the dealer.


So, a dealer does something really stupid to your car and you make a fuss about it, and the techs might beat you up while throwing you out of the place?!?!?
Yeah, LOTS of businesses run that way.
Bought my daughter a new battery from a kiosk in a mall and it wouldn't take a charge. Took it back and quietly and reasonably requested a replacement, they told me that some of the batteries were just like that out of the box and it was too bad, not their problem. Taking note that there were several customers at the kiosk, I raised my voiced and asked them why it was not their problem that they charged me $40 for something that didn't work at all? All the other customers looked at me with alarm, and I had a functional battery in my hands in about 10 seconds.
A business treats you like [censored], you raise your voice and make sure other customers hear you. If they beat you up, get a lawyer and you own the place.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi

So, a dealer does something really stupid to your car and you make a fuss about it, and the techs might beat you up while throwing you out of the place?!?!?
Yeah, LOTS of businesses run that way.
Bought my daughter a new battery from a kiosk in a mall and it wouldn't take a charge. Took it back and quietly and reasonably requested a replacement, they told me that some of the batteries were just like that out of the box and it was too bad, not their problem. Taking note that there were several customers at the kiosk, I raised my voiced and asked them why it was not their problem that they charged me $40 for something that didn't work at all? All the other customers looked at me with alarm, and I had a functional battery in my hands in about 10 seconds.
A business treats you like [censored], you raise your voice and make sure other customers hear you. If they beat you up, get a lawyer and you own the place.


Raising your voice sternly and having an absolute conniption fit are two different things. Your battery mall Kiosk analogy over a 40 dollar battery and multiple thousand dollar engine replacement would get you two different responses.

I have been a dealership where a guy went bezerk over over a sale and a perceived injustice, they just call the cops and treat it as a trespass order then. Nobody laid a hand on the guy but in the end, he still did not get what he wanted and just made and a$$ out of himself.

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
That's a very old school way of cleaning out a sludged up motor.

Has this method actually been proven to be effective? Or is it just one of those "supposed to" but nobody has any proof?




I think that when ATF used to be made primarily of whale oil, it was a decent flush method for an engine. I don't think it's been whale oil since the 50's though.

 

[Lutzy]

Update: 27K mi later and with 88K on truck engine is excellent. No smoke, ticking or noises. Pulls my 5klb trailer as it always did. Had oil cooler line leak dealer replaced free of charge. Dealer ignored request for warranty but did fix the only issue I had. I did call one attorney and left a message with a description of what happened and he didn't even return my call. Overall so far so good. I'm gonna drive it til it dies. Hopefully to at least 200k and another 10 years. Love the truck. Thanks for all your comments and advice I do appreciate it!