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- Dec 30, 2006
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I'm with the camp that says if it's running fine with no issues,you're probably fine. I'd think if something mechanical was harmed,it'd show up right away.
Help! Dealer flushed my engine with ATF
- Thread starter Lutzy
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What a horror story. I realize that lots of guys try hard, and all it takes are a few bad apples, but who needs a bad apple changing one's oil?
When I get told things like a 0w-40 is too thin for the summer in an Audi (from a parts guy) or that ATF is a good engine flush (heard that from an oil change tech recently) I really begin to wonder. Of course, some of the quick lube guys are brand fanatics, which doesn't help. And, I don't mean brand fanatics like promoting a boutique. I mean guys who hold one vanilla SN/GF-5 way above another vanill SN/GF-5. Yep, like Castrol GTX and Formula Shell aren't interchangeable for 3750 mile intervals.
When I get told things like a 0w-40 is too thin for the summer in an Audi (from a parts guy) or that ATF is a good engine flush (heard that from an oil change tech recently) I really begin to wonder. Of course, some of the quick lube guys are brand fanatics, which doesn't help. And, I don't mean brand fanatics like promoting a boutique. I mean guys who hold one vanilla SN/GF-5 way above another vanill SN/GF-5. Yep, like Castrol GTX and Formula Shell aren't interchangeable for 3750 mile intervals.
Originally Posted By: Torrid
Didn't people used to swear by doing this to clean engines? .............
Most of the old school shade tree tricks involving ATF in a motor was usually adding 1 quart to the already oil filled crankcase for a short time before changing the oil. Not filling it completely with ATF.
Didn't people used to swear by doing this to clean engines? .............
Most of the old school shade tree tricks involving ATF in a motor was usually adding 1 quart to the already oil filled crankcase for a short time before changing the oil. Not filling it completely with ATF.
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
I'd check the tranny. To make sure the fluid there doesn't look like an engine oil
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
I'd check the tranny. To make sure the fluid there doesn't look like an engine oil
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
i think nick is on the rite track also call your local lemon law attorney i know of a case like this one that the owner got $8900.00
The dealer cant give you anything in the long run.... make sure you have the proof make them write it on your work order. They have to by law..
The dealer cant give you anything in the long run.... make sure you have the proof make them write it on your work order. They have to by law..
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Maybe they put motor oil in the transmission since they put ATF in the engine.
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Maybe they put motor oil in the transmission since they put ATF in the engine.
Originally Posted By: Luisraul924
to be completely honest I don't care if it didn't do a thing, if that happened to me I would be causing a sh*tstorm if they didn't replace the engine. That's just me though.
You don't raise a sh*tstorm in a place of business without consequences.
If you were lucky, you'd be "escorted" out by a couple of dealer employees. The real techs are quite strong, since they do manual labor all day long every day.
If you were less lucky, you'd be cruising to the city joint in the back of a CVPI in cuffs.
No new engine for you either way.
In the case of the OP, it sounds as though no harm was done.
GM will also not get involved in a dealer servicing error, nor should they.
If a problem develops, which it probably won't, it'll be between the OP and the dealer.
to be completely honest I don't care if it didn't do a thing, if that happened to me I would be causing a sh*tstorm if they didn't replace the engine. That's just me though.
You don't raise a sh*tstorm in a place of business without consequences.
If you were lucky, you'd be "escorted" out by a couple of dealer employees. The real techs are quite strong, since they do manual labor all day long every day.
If you were less lucky, you'd be cruising to the city joint in the back of a CVPI in cuffs.
No new engine for you either way.
In the case of the OP, it sounds as though no harm was done.
GM will also not get involved in a dealer servicing error, nor should they.
If a problem develops, which it probably won't, it'll be between the OP and the dealer.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Maybe they put motor oil in the transmission since they put ATF in the engine.
Maybe they put gear lube in the trannie, and motor oil in the diff(s). How do you drain and fill an engine, when you are supposed to be servicing the trannie?
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Maybe they put motor oil in the transmission since they put ATF in the engine.
Maybe they put gear lube in the trannie, and motor oil in the diff(s). How do you drain and fill an engine, when you are supposed to be servicing the trannie?
Originally Posted By: CKN
Originally Posted By: Luisraul924
to be completely honest I don't care if it didn't do a thing, if that happened to me I would be causing a sh*tstorm if they didn't replace the engine. That's just me though.
Yea-and you wouldn't get one. An extended warranty probably.
This thread will go on with the "Dealer Haters".
Got to agree, extended warranty and DOCUMENTATION. Geez, I would be freaking out, dont know what I would do, personally think you will be ok but would stop at nothing to get the warranty.
Originally Posted By: Luisraul924
to be completely honest I don't care if it didn't do a thing, if that happened to me I would be causing a sh*tstorm if they didn't replace the engine. That's just me though.
Yea-and you wouldn't get one. An extended warranty probably.
This thread will go on with the "Dealer Haters".
Got to agree, extended warranty and DOCUMENTATION. Geez, I would be freaking out, dont know what I would do, personally think you will be ok but would stop at nothing to get the warranty.
Man this whole thing has me sick. This truck is my baby. I have made my request and am heading over there. But I think I am just going to end up let an attorney handle it. That seems to be the best way to deal with it. Not screwing around. Thanks again for all you advice, sarcasm, humor etc. Let you know how it goes.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: bruno
If I recall ATF is really equivalent to a good quality 5W oil ?
Nothing in there to hurt ?
ATF does NOT have the proper protection chemistry for use in internal combustion engines.
Push for a new engine if you can prove ATF was put in the engine.
Create a document and hand it to the dealer's General Manager and Service Department, with the following language:
Quote:
Your service department placed ATF in the engine during an engine oil change, which could have caused irrepairable damage.
TO: Dealer Name
Date:
From:
Subject:
How Dealer Name can rectify this situation:
Replace the Engine.
I trust we can come to an amicable resolution without having to resort to external avenues of satisfaction.
If I recall ATF is really equivalent to a good quality 5W oil ?
Nothing in there to hurt ?
ATF does NOT have the proper protection chemistry for use in internal combustion engines.
Push for a new engine if you can prove ATF was put in the engine.
Create a document and hand it to the dealer's General Manager and Service Department, with the following language:
Quote:
Your service department placed ATF in the engine during an engine oil change, which could have caused irrepairable damage.
TO: Dealer Name
Date:
From:
Subject:
How Dealer Name can rectify this situation:
Replace the Engine.
I trust we can come to an amicable resolution without having to resort to external avenues of satisfaction.
Last edited:
I'm agreeing with the approach of getting a 3 year extended warranty, dealer probably pays for that.
Originally Posted By: cronk
Gm Corporate is not responsible, this is on the dealership.
With the recreational legalization of marijuana, on top of traditional alcoholics and occasional pill poppers, on top of people just not getting enough sleep at night, these kinds of mistakes are on the rise here in Oregon and also hearing it from friends in Colorado, where marijuana is also now legal and lots of people get a hit in the morning before work. Root cause maybe???? I mean, this was really, really stupid.
Originally Posted By: cronk
Gm Corporate is not responsible, this is on the dealership.
With the recreational legalization of marijuana, on top of traditional alcoholics and occasional pill poppers, on top of people just not getting enough sleep at night, these kinds of mistakes are on the rise here in Oregon and also hearing it from friends in Colorado, where marijuana is also now legal and lots of people get a hit in the morning before work. Root cause maybe???? I mean, this was really, really stupid.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: bruno
If I recall ATF is really equivalent to a good quality 5W oil ?
Nothing in there to hurt ?
ATF does not have the proper protection chemistry for use in internal combustion engines.
Ask for a new engine.
I was just about to message you about the problems here!!!. Does ATF lack ZDDP (or other AW)? Is the seals compatibility issue a problem? If there was only one cold start, wouldn't simple hydrodynamic lubrication, no AW additives needed for the most part, be so dominant it prevails over 40 miles?
Originally Posted By: bruno
If I recall ATF is really equivalent to a good quality 5W oil ?
Nothing in there to hurt ?
ATF does not have the proper protection chemistry for use in internal combustion engines.
Ask for a new engine.
I was just about to message you about the problems here!!!. Does ATF lack ZDDP (or other AW)? Is the seals compatibility issue a problem? If there was only one cold start, wouldn't simple hydrodynamic lubrication, no AW additives needed for the most part, be so dominant it prevails over 40 miles?
MolaKule
Staff member
Seal compatibility should not be an issue in the short term as ATF has seal conditioners.
However, ATF has a very low level of ZDDP as one of the many anti-oxidants, but not enough for anti-wear.
ATF does however have about 600 ppm of a special phosphorous chemistry for anti-wear, but this chemistry is for AW protection of bearings and planetary gearing, not rings and cylinders, not for IC bearings.
ATF has very low levels of anti-rust, detergency, and dispercency chemistry NOT suited for internal combustion engines.
Quote:
Push for a new engine if you can prove ATF was put in the engine.
Create a document and hand it to the dealer's General Manager and Service Department, with the following language:
Quote:
TO: Dealer Name
Date:
From:
Subject: ATF in Engine
Your service department placed ATF in the engine during an engine oil change, which could have caused irrepairable damage after leaving the dealership.
How Dealer Name can rectify this situation:
Replace the Engine.
I trust we can come to an amicable resolution without having to resort to external avenues of satisfaction.
However, ATF has a very low level of ZDDP as one of the many anti-oxidants, but not enough for anti-wear.
ATF does however have about 600 ppm of a special phosphorous chemistry for anti-wear, but this chemistry is for AW protection of bearings and planetary gearing, not rings and cylinders, not for IC bearings.
ATF has very low levels of anti-rust, detergency, and dispercency chemistry NOT suited for internal combustion engines.
Quote:
Push for a new engine if you can prove ATF was put in the engine.
Create a document and hand it to the dealer's General Manager and Service Department, with the following language:
Quote:
TO: Dealer Name
Date:
From:
Subject: ATF in Engine
Your service department placed ATF in the engine during an engine oil change, which could have caused irrepairable damage after leaving the dealership.
How Dealer Name can rectify this situation:
Replace the Engine.
I trust we can come to an amicable resolution without having to resort to external avenues of satisfaction.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
ATF has a very low level of ZDDP as one of the many anti-oxidants, but not enough for anti-wear. ATF does however have about 600 ppm of a special phosphorous chemistry for anti-wear, but this chemistry is for AW protection of bearings and planetary gearing. ATF has very low levels of anti-rust, detergency, and dispercency chemistry NOT suited for internal combustion engines.
Thanks for the summary, ATF you'd think has some lubrication properties an engine could use. Anti-rust, detergency, dispersancy isn't going to matter over only 40 miles, too short a term.
The phosphorous AW additives in ATF are optimized for gears/bearings, yet an engine is at least similar in rolling/sliding contact regimes. .... I agree that ATF fluid is not anywhere near optimal for an engine, yet you seem to be overreacting here based on your lubrication reasons... An extended warranty for 3 years would be more fair, not engine replacement.
ATF has a very low level of ZDDP as one of the many anti-oxidants, but not enough for anti-wear. ATF does however have about 600 ppm of a special phosphorous chemistry for anti-wear, but this chemistry is for AW protection of bearings and planetary gearing. ATF has very low levels of anti-rust, detergency, and dispercency chemistry NOT suited for internal combustion engines.
Thanks for the summary, ATF you'd think has some lubrication properties an engine could use. Anti-rust, detergency, dispersancy isn't going to matter over only 40 miles, too short a term.
The phosphorous AW additives in ATF are optimized for gears/bearings, yet an engine is at least similar in rolling/sliding contact regimes. .... I agree that ATF fluid is not anywhere near optimal for an engine, yet you seem to be overreacting here based on your lubrication reasons... An extended warranty for 3 years would be more fair, not engine replacement.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
ATF has a very low level of ZDDP as one of the many anti-oxidants, but not enough for anti-wear. ATF does however have about 600 ppm of a special phosphorous chemistry for anti-wear, but this chemistry is for AW protection of bearings and planetary gearing. ATF has very low levels of anti-rust, detergency, and dispercency chemistry NOT suited for internal combustion engines.
Thanks for the summary, ATF you'd think has some lubrication properties an engine could use. Anti-rust, detergency, dispersancy isn't going to matter over only 40 miles, too short a term.
The phosphorous AW additives in ATF are optimized for gears/bearings, yet an engine is at least similar in rolling/sliding contact regimes. .... I agree that ATF fluid is not anywhere near optimal for an engine, yet you seem to be overreacting here based on your lubrication reasons... An extended warranty for 3 years would be more fair, not engine replacement.
If you depend on your truck for either getting to or from work, or using it in your job, it would not be over reacting.
It is the responsibility of the dealership to properly train their personnel in the proper use of, application, and dispensing of lubricants.
Again, if the OP can prove ATF was placed in the engine, I think the dealership has a responsibility to properly rectify this situation.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
ATF has a very low level of ZDDP as one of the many anti-oxidants, but not enough for anti-wear. ATF does however have about 600 ppm of a special phosphorous chemistry for anti-wear, but this chemistry is for AW protection of bearings and planetary gearing. ATF has very low levels of anti-rust, detergency, and dispercency chemistry NOT suited for internal combustion engines.
Thanks for the summary, ATF you'd think has some lubrication properties an engine could use. Anti-rust, detergency, dispersancy isn't going to matter over only 40 miles, too short a term.
The phosphorous AW additives in ATF are optimized for gears/bearings, yet an engine is at least similar in rolling/sliding contact regimes. .... I agree that ATF fluid is not anywhere near optimal for an engine, yet you seem to be overreacting here based on your lubrication reasons... An extended warranty for 3 years would be more fair, not engine replacement.
If you depend on your truck for either getting to or from work, or using it in your job, it would not be over reacting.
It is the responsibility of the dealership to properly train their personnel in the proper use of, application, and dispensing of lubricants.
Again, if the OP can prove ATF was placed in the engine, I think the dealership has a responsibility to properly rectify this situation.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Thanks for the summary, ATF you'd think has some lubrication properties an engine could use. Anti-rust, detergency, dispersancy isn't going to matter over only 40 miles, too short a term.
And how do you know no journal bearings, or crankshafts, or camshafts, or cylinders were scored?
Quote:
The phosphorous AW additives in ATF are optimized for gears/bearings, yet an engine is at least similar in rolling/sliding contact regimes. .... I agree that ATF fluid is not anywhere near optimal for an engine, yet you seem to be overreacting here based on your lubrication reasons... An extended warranty for 3 years would be more fair, not engine replacement.
Most ATs have a majority of needle bearings and/or roller bearings, not journal bearings.
Thanks for the summary, ATF you'd think has some lubrication properties an engine could use. Anti-rust, detergency, dispersancy isn't going to matter over only 40 miles, too short a term.
And how do you know no journal bearings, or crankshafts, or camshafts, or cylinders were scored?
Quote:
The phosphorous AW additives in ATF are optimized for gears/bearings, yet an engine is at least similar in rolling/sliding contact regimes. .... I agree that ATF fluid is not anywhere near optimal for an engine, yet you seem to be overreacting here based on your lubrication reasons... An extended warranty for 3 years would be more fair, not engine replacement.
Most ATs have a majority of needle bearings and/or roller bearings, not journal bearings.
Last edited:
It's catch-22 here. You can push the issue of engine replacement, but the dealership may just make a claim against their insurance and if they do that, all they are responsible for is make it "whole" as you were before. That can mean them getting a junkyard engine with like or less miles, does not necessarily mean they will put a new or even rebuild one in it.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Maybe they put motor oil in the transmission since they put ATF in the engine.
Yeah, who knows what else they S***d up?
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Originally Posted By: Lutzy
Funny thing is, the truck was in for a Tranny fluid flush.
So did the dealer to a trans flush when you took it back in? Since I doubt they did it the first time when they filled the engine with atf.
Maybe they put motor oil in the transmission since they put ATF in the engine.
Yeah, who knows what else they S***d up?
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