Reasons NOT to go with an Over-sized filter?

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Another reason for the downsizing of the filters is the EPA. Even the same numbers filters are smaller than before such as the Motorcraft FL-1A.

It's because steel costs money and there isn't a lot of margin in a $5 retail oil filter. I find it very incredible to believe the EPA regulates how large an oil filter can be. It's also incredible to me something called an environmental protection agency can be villified as something bad. I want the environment, aka the world we live on, protected as much as possible.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
From my perspective that's completely unsubstantiated.

What assertion of mine do you feel is completely unsubstantiated? I said the benefits were minuscule and the only tangible benefit might be in a super-long OCI.

Primarily I just objected to the assertion that the factory recommendations always get it right. I already backed that up.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
For my part I have nearly always used the OEM Toyota filters (or the Denso equivalent), and despite being "undersized" and continuously criticized here on BITOG for their abysmal filtering efficiencies, I still somehow have managed to get well over a half million miles out of the two.


As do I in my Corolla, Toyota filters, the originally recommended 5K OCI and Mobil 1, so I get accused of bad filtration and wasting synthetic oil in short OCI's. You can't win here on BITOG. Someone always tells you you've got it wrong.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Again for the 1000th+time, if anyone has hard data that conclusively shows bigger filters are "better" in normal circumstances, they by all means, post it up!


pretty much in a nutshell...

 

[SHOZ]

How about this.


It's safe to be down a quart of oil. That's why the range between the lines is a quart. Would you drive around on the low mark all the time or do you think a little more oil would be helpful?

 

[3311]

Another reason for the downsizing of the filters is the EPA. Even the same numbers filters are smaller than before such as the Motorcraft FL-1A.

The Hyundai spec spin on filter has been used for 40 years though and is the same size since the 80's by Mazda and other Asian cars and except for internal improvements has been the same small physical size. [/


quote]

Good point, smaller filters could easily, in addition other reasons discussed, be a result of the insidious EPA .

Like I stated above, today's tiny filters are adequate, optimal.

 

[kschachn]

The assertion that automakers don't give a darn about your engine past the warranty, hence the smaller filters. I don't think that could be shown in any meaningful way, today's engines and cars last a whole lot longer than they did years ago.

But either way sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I was simply reacting to the notion that companies spec small filters because they want your engine to fail as soon as the warranty is over. That would run pretty contrary to my experience and what I have seen in the wild.

Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: kschachn
From my perspective that's completely unsubstantiated.

What assertion of mine do you feel is completely unsubstantiated? I said the benefits were minuscule and the only tangible benefit might be in a super-long OCI.

Primarily I just objected to the assertion that the factory recommendations always get it right. I already backed that up.

 

[3311]

Mean't to say above. Today's tiny filters are adequate, not optimal.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Another reason for the downsizing of the filters is the EPA. Even the same numbers filters are smaller than before such as the Motorcraft FL-1A.

It's because steel costs money and there isn't a lot of margin in a $5 retail oil filter. I find it very incredible to believe the EPA regulates how large an oil filter can be. It's also incredible to me something called an environmental protection agency can be villified as something bad. I want the environment, aka the world we live on, protected as much as possible.


The EPA argument is the EPA and their ilk would want to reduce what is potentially going in landfills.
Everyone wants a clean environment. But some people just think there are common sense ways to preserve it and have have a difference of opinion with radical crazies who are running it.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Instead of thinking that we're being cheated (for a lack of a better term) in the OEMs downsizing filters, perhaps look at it in a different manner?

It's pretty obvious to me that even "normal" (non-premium) filters can easily go up to 3x the O/FCI of days gone by. I've done it multiple times and have the data to prove it.


So by downsizing the filters in new applications, they are not cheating us by using an inferior filter, but rather doing a better job of matching the intended OCI to the FCI.

We are doing this (as many companies do) with a "same as" mentality. We look for products that perform to an equal level, but offer a savings.

The older, larger filters were so grossly over-capacitzed that it makes sense to downsize them. But in no way does that infer the protection is inferior somehow.

But don't trust the OEMs if you don't want to. Do your own testing. Run some UOAs with your oversized filter, then try a smaller one for several OCIs. See if you can clearly discern any difference outside of normal variance. For a "normal" OCI, I project that you'll NEVER see any TANGIBLE difference in wear data. And I have over 10,000 UOAs in all manner of applications to back that up.

What the OEMs are starting to do is offer a much better match up between ever-improving lubes and ever-cleaner running engines with filters that will easily perform just as well, but perhaps with less "excess" capacity.

Again for the 1000th+time, if anyone has hard data that conclusively shows bigger filters are "better" in normal circumstances, they by all means, post it up!


Is your data(10000 uoa's) in sortable format?

 

[goodtimes]

Is there anything showing the EPA and ilk has any say in oil filter manufacturing sizes? I used to pour my used oil along the fence in the bad old days. Now I can put it out and they take it away. What's wrong with that? I thank the EPA for their improvements. Especially auto emissions and lead in gas. There isn't any craziness in that. Cars are better running, cleaner, faster.
I remember the early 60's in high school not being able to see the nearby hills from the smog, now it is pretty clear all the time. What is wrong with that? Is that craziness?
They make oil filters smaller to save on steel and save money. EPA isn't telling them anything about engineering an oil filter.

 

[GMBoy]

Another option instead of running a larger filter is to use a long life high capacity filter such as a Bosch Distance+ or similar. I would rather do that then guess which larger filter will work. I just don't think larger filters are necessary.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
The assertion that automakers don't give a darn about your engine past the warranty, hence the smaller filters. I don't think that could be shown in any meaningful way, today's engines and cars last a whole lot longer than they did years ago.

Oh, THAT assertion. Sorry, just pessimism on my part. I just had another exchange (not on BITOG) about a certain manufacturer that obviously doesn't give a hoot about their customers being financially screwed by their design choices.

Even from the most jaded view, in order to avoid warranty claims running them out of business, any auto manufacturer must engineer their lubrication system to get not just the first and second Sigma through the warranty period, but the third sigma as well. That means, unless they really screw up, they "care" to push reliability to the right of the line comfortably enough that we can USUALLY enjoy good engine reliability (assuming good maintenance) well past the warranty period.

Unfortunately history is full of all kinds of engine reliability exceptions, but most of them are not lubrication related (Ford Y engines come to mind, but that was a long time ago).

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Another option instead of running a larger filter is to use a long life high capacity filter such as a Bosch Distance+ or similar. I would rather do that then guess which larger filter will work. I just don't think larger filters are necessary.


I don't think anyone says they are necessary. But you cannot say there is no advantage to a larger filter.

The little Hyundai filters have been the same format with slight internal changes for over 40 years. Although the design is robust he performance is just average. Plenty of cars have gone the distance to loose to rust before the engines fail from oil problems, excluding owner neglect. Not any large size V8s though.

What size filters do the newer American big engines using now?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Tiny little things!

TG10060 fits my older vans and pickups and my new Ram, all V8 engines.

3.3 inches long! I remember being concerned, but these newer engines last far longer than the trucks they are mounted in, and the trucks last far longer than you would believe...

 

[kschachn]

If you had used the (more nebulous) word "better", one might have an easier time agreeing with you. But just because it's larger?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
]I don't think anyone says they are necessary. But you cannot say there is no advantage to a larger filter.

The little Hyundai filters have been the same format with slight internal changes for over 40 years. Although the design is robust he performance is just average. Plenty of cars have gone the distance to loose to rust before the engines fail from oil problems, excluding owner neglect. Not any large size V8s though.

What size filters do the newer American big engines using now?

 

[javacontour]

Probably more than just paying for the engine.

Ten to twenty hours of a lawyer's time will get you a new engine.

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Great post Dave. I would hate to see the cost to prove that the filter did or didn't cause a failure.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
If you had used the (more nebulous) word "better", one might have an easier time agreeing with you. But just because it's larger?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
]I don't think anyone says they are necessary. But you cannot say there is no advantage to a larger filter.

The little Hyundai filters have been the same format with slight internal changes for over 40 years. Although the design is robust he performance is just average. Plenty of cars have gone the distance to loose to rust before the engines fail from oil problems, excluding owner neglect. Not any large size V8s though.

What size filters do the newer American big engines using now?


What's not to like? More oil, more filter media, more surface area for cooling.

 

[Oregoonian]

Originally Posted By: abycat
I don't see Any reason to use the bigger filter. my filter on my Nissan is tiny and when I cut the filters open around 6000km the filter only looks wet with oil. No particles whatsoever in it so I'm thinking the holding capacity is waaaay larger than needed. Unless there was a major sludge problem then I'd think about it.

The reason it looks just wet...is because your under using the filter. Could probably use that filter 12k easily.

Your wasting $$$ and time changing it as often as you do. I'm guessing your changing your oil to soon as well.

 

[mr_diy]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: kschachn
If you had used the (more nebulous) word "better", one might have an easier time agreeing with you. But just because it's larger?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
]I don't think anyone says they are necessary. But you cannot say there is no advantage to a larger filter.

The little Hyundai filters have been the same format with slight internal changes for over 40 years. Although the design is robust he performance is just average. Plenty of cars have gone the distance to loose to rust before the engines fail from oil problems, excluding owner neglect. Not any large size V8s though.

What size filters do the newer American big engines using now?


What's not to like? More oil, more filter media, more surface area for cooling.


If filtering improves as the media loads up, then more media would filter worse if interval remains the same. Better to move up quality than quantity of media.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: kschachn
If you had used the (more nebulous) word "better", one might have an easier time agreeing with you. But just because it's larger?

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
]I don't think anyone says they are necessary. But you cannot say there is no advantage to a larger filter.

The little Hyundai filters have been the same format with slight internal changes for over 40 years. Although the design is robust he performance is just average. Plenty of cars have gone the distance to loose to rust before the engines fail from oil problems, excluding owner neglect. Not any large size V8s though.

What size filters do the newer American big engines using now?


What's not to like? More oil, more filter media, more surface area for cooling.


Is the surface area for cooling even noticeable? I can see this being the case in an air cooled engine, but not so much a liquid cooled one. What do I know though.