Wix vs Fram Ultra

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
As the particle size reduces and approaches 20 microns (ie, like a particle 20.0001 micron in size), then what they are trying to say, for all practical purposes when talking about filter efficiency, is "@ 20 microns and greater" ... or "equal to 20 microns and greater".


Not sure, but 4548-12 uses special lab dust of multiple specific groups, not a continuous distribution. For example, a 1-gram pile of 20-micron dust, 1-gram pile of 30 micron dust, etc. And, when I say 20-micron dust I'm really talking about dust with a bell curve (gaussian) of +/-sigma of +/-3 microns.


I'm not sure exactly what kind of particle size distribution and increments they use in the test. There probably is some kind of "statistical magic" going on also with the particulates used and the particle measurement data to come up with an "official beta ratio".

All I'm just trying to show is the logic behind why saying ">20 microns or greater" basically becomes equivalent to saying "at 20 microns or greater". Assuming the size increment was very small (like 1/2 micron or 1/10th), meaning the size range was theoretically continuous.

 

[route66mike]

Motorking, whats the size distribution of test particles in 4548-12 used in the Ultra/TG case?

I read some time ago it was clumps, groups of discrete sizes.

 

[SilverC6]

#57 crushed stone???

 

[jmb3675]

So if I understand this correctly,
a standard Wix is 50% efficient at filtering 20 micron particles and 91.67% at 25 micron particles.
A Wix XP is 95% at 20 microns
A Fram Ultra is 99% at >20 microns. Which is more efficient than the Wix. At least on paper.

 

[901Memphis]

Originally Posted By: jmb3675
So if I understand this correctly,
a standard Wix is 50% efficient at filtering 20 micron particles and 91.67% at 25 micron particles.
A Wix XP is 95% at 20 microns
A Fram Ultra is 99% at >20 microns. Which is more efficient than the Wix. At least on paper.



Actually your backwards, the STANDARD wix is 95% @ 20 microns, its the Wix XP which has the low 50% efficiency, and the Fram Ultra is 99%+ @ 20 microns

 

[Sayjac]

Unlike some apparently, I do expect to see actual published data, otherwise for me it's either hearsay or anecdotal. The reason the GM study is cited so often here is because it is an actual 'study', and apparently one of kind. Being a scientific study means the procedures are defined and documented, controls used and has repeatability for testing and verification purposes. That is the basis of true research versus anecdotal results.

dnewton has read the complete SAE study, and commented many times from that point of view. He's certainly more of an expert on the study than me, and I suspect I'm not alone. As I've said in the past, I'll leave how the GM study of fine filtration correlates to real world use to others more knowledgeable.

However if one implies that the GM study is the demarcation point for significantly improved vehicle engine longevity, that imo is a leap of faith. It also seemingly ignores the major improvements in API certified motor oils over that same period of time. Also if improvements in filtration especially fine filtration efficiency is the main reason for improved engine life longevity, then apparently Honda and Toyota didn't get the memo or they beg to differ, as the Amsoil chart illustrates. Generally speaking both of those manufacturers have a 'fairly respectable' record for engine longevity and reliability. Even the US based manufacturers don't focus on ultra fine filtration efficiency.

Also interesting is the results are shown using the @ symbol. My understanding based on past explanations posted is legal considerations is the main reason for use of the > symbol. Beyond that, not worth debating for me.

 

[yvon_la]

The only explaination i can think of as to why japanese car use soso filter and yet gain extrem result is this:japanese favor a minimal amount of oil pressure everywhere .other also do this it seem,but i suspect oil pressure probably drop within engine that japan car.i suspect its something japanese discovered when they were the top dog of racing .one thing is sure .they know something .cause they keep using flow filter instead of efficienci wouldntbe surprised if soon they ised a sturdier version of ecore

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted By: route66mike
Motorking, whats the size distribution of test particles in 4548-12 used in the Ultra/TG case?

I read some time ago it was clumps, groups of discrete sizes.

we typically use particles in the 10-20 micron size. If your filtering at 99% at 20, it is 100% for any size larger than that. That said, we also use particle sizes down to three microns depending on the customer request.

As far as internal wear studies, we are running along term wear study conducted by Southwest research (independent lab) right now. It is looking at not only filter effectivness but effectiveness of various anti wear addtives. When its done, I will share what I can.

 

[Motorking]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Unlike some apparently, I do expect to see actual published data, otherwise for me it's either hearsay or anecdotal. The reason the GM study is cited so often here is because it is an actual 'study', and apparently one of kind. Being a scientific study means the procedures are defined and documented, controls used and has repeatability for testing and verification purposes. That is the basis of true research versus anecdotal results.

dnewton has read the complete SAE study, and commented many times from that point of view. He's certainly more of an expert on the study than me, and I suspect I'm not alone. As I've said in the past, I'll leave how the GM study of fine filtration correlates to real world use to others more knowledgeable.

Too bad this didnt include FRAM.


However if one implies that the GM study is the demarcation point for significantly improved vehicle engine longevity, that imo is a leap of faith. It also seemingly ignores the major improvements in API certified motor oils over that same period of time. Also if improvements in filtration especially fine filtration efficiency is the main reason for improved engine life longevity, then apparently Honda and Toyota didn't get the memo or they beg to differ, as the Amsoil chart illustrates. Generally speaking both of those manufacturers have a 'fairly respectable' record for engine longevity and reliability. Even the US based manufacturers don't focus on ultra fine filtration efficiency.

Also interesting is the results are shown using the @ symbol. My understanding based on past explanations posted is legal considerations is the main reason for use of the > symbol. Beyond that, not worth debating for me.

 

[dnewton3]

MK -

No comments on my request for your detailed interpretation of the filter study?

 

[route66mike]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
MK -
No comments on my request for your detailed interpretation of the filter study?

Have you tried looking up and contacting any member of the 1988 study? It wasn't that long ago. They have had many years to reflect over the study and they probably don't give a rat's patoot who they tick off by criticizing it. (A rat's patoot is 2.3 microns across, and a Wix XP, like MCHammer, can't touch it.)

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: Motorking
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Unlike some apparently, I do expect to see actual published data, otherwise for me it's either hearsay or anecdotal. The reason the GM study is cited so often here is because it is an actual 'study', and apparently one of kind. Being a scientific study means the procedures are defined and documented, controls used and has repeatability for testing and verification purposes. That is the basis of true research versus anecdotal results.

dnewton has read the complete SAE study, and commented many times from that point of view. He's certainly more of an expert on the study than me, and I suspect I'm not alone. As I've said in the past, I'll leave how the GM study of fine filtration correlates to real world use to others more knowledgeable.

..............

However if one implies that the GM study is the demarcation point for significantly improved vehicle engine longevity, that imo is a leap of faith. It also seemingly ignores the major improvements in API certified motor oils over that same period of time. Also if improvements in filtration especially fine filtration efficiency is the main reason for improved engine life longevity, then apparently Honda and Toyota didn't get the memo or they beg to differ, as the Amsoil chart illustrates. Generally speaking both of those manufacturers have a 'fairly respectable' record for engine longevity and reliability. Even the US based manufacturers don't focus on ultra fine filtration efficiency.

Also interesting is the results are shown using the @ symbol. My understanding based on past explanations posted is legal considerations is the main reason for use of the > symbol. Beyond that, not worth debating for me.

Too bad this didnt include FRAM.

Well Fram does make the included A02, to Honda specs, but that wasn't the point of posting the diagram. It was to illustrate that based on Honda/Toyota oem oil filter efficiency specs apparently they don't consider filter efficiency to be all that significant for engine longevity, despite the GM/SAE study.

Point was not to dispute or attempt to dispute any of Fram's or Ultra's efficiency ratings, which already have published ISO 4548-12 ratings. I'm confident they would have tested as rated.

As an aside, appreciate it if you're going to quote me, you not embed your reply in my post as it appears to be part my thoughts.

 

[Motorking]

We use particle sizes between 10 and 20 microns for all aftermarket filter testing

 

[Motorking]

I give, you have beat me down.
Before I mount up the horse and charge off to yet-again slay the mythology of this nearly-worthless SAE study, I'd like to offer you an opportunity to detail and discuss just what points of that SAE study you and Fram feel are appliable to the real world. Please be specific and cite your claims relative to each point made, because that is exactly how I'll debunk it.

Worthless? Ok, you win, no debate from me.

 

[Nate1979]

Come on guys. Let's keep this a technical discussion. Jay and Dave's comments are always appreciated on this site but let's step back before anyone gets upset and stops posting on this site (regardless of skin thickness). Your contributions are very important to the technical dialogue on this site.

If Jay can post any results from their internal study it would be much appreciated.

 

[stickybuns]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Come on guys. Let's keep this a technical discussion. Jay and Dave's comments are always appreciated on this site but let's step back before anyone gets upset and stops posting on this site (regardless of skin thickness). Your contributions are very important to the technical dialogue on this site.

If Jay can post any results from their internal study it would be much appreciated.


dnewton3 with the usual rudeness. We'd better agree with him or else theres a hissy fit to splash on this forum.

 

[Sayjac]

Wow a 7 day newbie criticizing a long time respected member. That must be the technical discussion/dialogue that's being referenced.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: stickybuns
..removed - mod....

I'm thinking bypassing the censor is violation board rules. In your case though you seem to be authority on the subject. Also a perfect example of remaining silent and being thought a .... than to speak and remove all doubt. Seem like an arrogant newb at that.

 

[subaroo]

Originally Posted By: yvon_la
The only explaination i can think of as to why japanese car use soso filter and yet gain extrem result is this:japanese favor a minimal amount of oil pressure everywhere .other also do this it seem,but i suspect oil pressure probably drop within engine that japan car.i suspect its something japanese discovered when they were the top dog of racing .one thing is sure .they know something .cause they keep using flow filter instead of efficienci wouldntbe surprised if soon they ised a sturdier version of ecore
suburu certainly doesn't believe in minimal oil pressure.

 

[stickybuns]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Seem like an arrogant newb at that.
Being a newb on bitog is a badge that says I have a life.