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#3368927 - 05/11/14 08:45 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: riggaz]
Volvohead Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 3550
Loc: SE Pa
Originally Posted By: riggaz
They do run hot with all those turbos and there's a lot of torque going through those bearings, I wouldn't want to run a 0w20 that's for sure!


For an extra $28,000, they'll install a pressure gauge on the hood for those insisting on a 20 weight.

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#3369107 - 05/12/14 04:53 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: FowVay]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 286
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: FowVay
And BTW, my Kawasaki ZX-14R puts down 197 horsepower to the back tire with a mere 1.441 liters of normally aspirated displacement giving it an output of 136.7 horsepower/liter. That Volkswagen on steroids makes 125 horsepower/liter with a ton of blowers and pushers and coolers and whatever else they could find in the Beetle parts bin. Eight liters of displacement and ONLY 1001 HP? tsk tsk tsk.. inefficiency at it's finest.

10W-60 INDEED! wink


And this is why focussing on power is folly. Your ZX-14R makes that power because of engine speed. Engine power is a factor of torque and speed - the bike's engine makes low torque but high speed, so gets a high power number.

However, when thinking about real engine forces, it is torque that you need to worry about (this is, after all, what pushes on the crankshaft journals).

Now how does your ZX-14R look? Let's take a look:

Kawasaki ZX-14R peak torque = 113 lb.ft (best I could find online)
Bugatti Veyron peak torque = 922 lb.ft

You can slice this up a few ways:

Per litre: 81 vs 115 - Veyron wins by 42%
Per cylinder: 28 vs 58 - Veyron wins by 107%
Per bhp: 0.57 vs 0.92 - Veyron wins by 61%
Per ton: 390 vs 443 - Veyron wins by 14%
Per ton (with 180 lb rider/driver): 297 vs 425 - Veyron wins by 43%.

Bang for buck the bike wins hands-down, but where it matters to the oil, the Veyron puts a lot more demand into it.
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#3369276 - 05/12/14 10:10 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
quarterliter Offline


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 172
Loc: Wisconsin
Make sure you are using wheel horsepower/torque for both of them. Has anyone actually seen a dyno chart for a veyron?

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#3369303 - 05/12/14 11:02 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
threeputtpar Offline


Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 1821
Loc: Appleton, WI
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.


I don't think companies factor in R&D costs (at least ALL of those costs) into the sticker price.

If your figure of $1.62 billion is correct, and they knew they were only going to make 300 cars, they would have to charge $5.4 million for each car just to recoup the R&D, irrespective of how much it cost to actually make the car. The figure I quoted is what VW/Bugatti is saying they lose on each car based on production cost for each car.


The accounting rules for expensing/capitalizing R&D costs are very specific when it comes to what can be put into the inventory numbers. Any costs up until a working prototype is created are all expensed in the period that they are incurred. So, by the time that VAG had a functional prototype of the Veyron, all of those costs were just expensed and would not show up in the cost of goods sold from inventory sales.
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#3369651 - 05/12/14 05:13 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: quarterliter]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8879
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: quarterliter
Make sure you are using wheel horsepower/torque for both of them. Has anyone actually seen a dyno chart for a veyron?


I've never seen a dyno report on the Veyron.

Here is a vid of a stock 1001 bhp Veyorn running the 1/4 in 10.17 seconds at 139.44 mph. Given that this car weighs 4300 pounds, I think it's fair to assume the hp at the wheels is somewhere in the neighborhood of 800.

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#3369739 - 05/12/14 07:26 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: OVERKILL]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 10822
Loc: OH
I know that you didn't mean to imply that the record setting Ford GT was streetable.
I mentioned Mod V-8s for a reason.
I know that the V-10 exists, but it coudn't possibly be packaged into a production car, and Ford couldn't afford the loss of CAFE credits this thirsty engine would bring even if it could be. The Mod has always been displacement limited for cars, as compared to GM's compact pushrod engines or probably the very dense VW 16 cylinder, although I'm not sure how to refer to its configuration.
I also understand that it wouldn't be easy to build a car to run to well over 250 mph in the standing mile, but a stock Veyron has eight liters deployed to begin with and also has four turbos to play with.
A little overbore and a little overboost would no doubt yield a lot more power, if VW wants to play that game, especially since the engine wouldn't have to live very long, could use any fuel and would not need to comply with any emissions standards.
Remember that the stripper model Veyron is capable of nearly 260 mph as delivered stock and also meets fifty state emission standards and that VW is also required to warrant that the engine will remain emissions legal for quite a few years and miles under USEPA regs.
While I'm sure that there exist 2000 bhp Ford Mods, I have to wonder what their life might be as measured in hours, or maybe passes?
Probably not any longer than what you'd get with a 2000 bph Veyron. One will get built, if not by VW than by some private owner with more money than sense.
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#3369867 - 05/12/14 09:26 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: fdcg27]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 28677
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I know that you didn't mean to imply that the record setting Ford GT was streetable.
I mentioned Mod V-8s for a reason.
I know that the V-10 exists, but it coudn't possibly be packaged into a production car, and Ford couldn't afford the loss of CAFE credits this thirsty engine would bring even if it could be. The Mod has always been displacement limited for cars, as compared to GM's compact pushrod engines or probably the very dense VW 16 cylinder, although I'm not sure how to refer to its configuration.
I also understand that it wouldn't be easy to build a car to run to well over 250 mph in the standing mile, but a stock Veyron has eight liters deployed to begin with and also has four turbos to play with.
A little overbore and a little overboost would no doubt yield a lot more power, if VW wants to play that game, especially since the engine wouldn't have to live very long, could use any fuel and would not need to comply with any emissions standards.
Remember that the stripper model Veyron is capable of nearly 260 mph as delivered stock and also meets fifty state emission standards and that VW is also required to warrant that the engine will remain emissions legal for quite a few years and miles under USEPA regs.
While I'm sure that there exist 2000 bhp Ford Mods, I have to wonder what their life might be as measured in hours, or maybe passes?
Probably not any longer than what you'd get with a 2000 bph Veyron. One will get built, if not by VW than by some private owner with more money than sense.


You'll laugh but somebody actually managed to squeeze the 6.8L V10 into an SN95 grin

Also, not sure if you ever saw the GT90 concept car, but if not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GT90

Modular-based 6.0L quad-turbo V12 smile And that was 1995.

Also of note, the Koenigsegg CCR was powered by a twin-supercharged Ford Modular V8 displacing 4.7L and making 795HP. A later edition made 891BHP.

I have no idea how long the 5.4's last at 2K+HP. But I was surprised at how well the 4.6 Termi's held up at the 1K HP levels. A buddy of mine who runs a tuning shop had a DD termi with a pair of twins on it making 850RHWP (about 975HP crank) that he drag raced and drove everywhere. Still had full emissions gear on it too crzy

The Modulars have impressed the heck out of me (in case you didn't notice, LOL). That's in no way meant to undermine the achievement and engineering masterpiece that is the Veyron of course smile It is an engineer's wet dream. I was just really shocked when I saw the power guys were getting out of the Ford GT setup, many of them with mostly stock engines. And they were staying together.
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#3369920 - 05/12/14 10:18 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: OVERKILL]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9689
Loc: PA
Is any of those 1000+ hp engines designed to be as reliable and long-lasting as the engine in the Veyron? I don't think anyone could say that with a straight face, except maybe in the cases of the GT90 and Koenigsegg cars -- both of which, I'm sure you'll agree, are exceptions that prove the rule: it's extremely hard to make an engine that puts out that much power with anywhere near normal longevity. No one could even come close until well after the Veyron came out in 2005.

And that's completely ignoring the docility and tractability of the Veyron's engine, which are nearly unmatched even among highly refined luxury car engines with half the power, let alone anything that comes close to 1000 hp.
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#3369960 - 05/12/14 10:58 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
quarterliter Offline


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 172
Loc: Wisconsin
Koenigsegg's engines are much more impressive than the veyrons. 270HP per liter on the new ONE:1. All from a twin turbo v8. No need for a w16 whiz bang engine. And even the most powerful bugatti does not have more than 1340 hp or one megawatt. It's amazing that a small swedish company could build such a competitive super car.

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#3369961 - 05/12/14 10:59 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: d00df00d]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 28677
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Is any of those 1000+ hp engines designed to be as reliable and long-lasting as the engine in the Veyron? I don't think anyone could say that with a straight face, except maybe in the cases of the GT90 and Koenigsegg cars -- both of which, I'm sure you'll agree, are exceptions that prove the rule: it's extremely hard to make an engine that puts out that much power with anywhere near normal longevity. No one could even come close until well after the Veyron came out in 2005.

And that's completely ignoring the docility and tractability of the Veyron's engine, which are nearly unmatched even among highly refined luxury car engines with half the power, let alone anything that comes close to 1000 hp.


I think the ~900HP CCR is pretty close, and I believe pre-dates the Veyron. Sure, it is off a bit over 100BHP, but it is also shy 3.5L too, LOL smile I just think it is pretty darn impressive they did it with a Modular grin
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#3369967 - 05/12/14 11:06 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
quarterliter Offline


Registered: 01/01/13
Posts: 172
Loc: Wisconsin
All the new engines are now their own design, but the Ford ones were impressive too

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#3370091 - 05/13/14 03:26 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: Mathson]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 442
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Mathson
Yeah like number of horses you have under the hood has something to do with the viscosity of the oil.

Each engine of Boeing 777 has 110 000 hp and it's using oil that is 5 cSt at 100c as per D50TF1, class B.


I didn't realise they were piston engines on those...

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#3370948 - 05/13/14 09:15 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1717
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No you are wrong.

It is widely reported to be just under £4million a car.

Which is around $6million
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#3370960 - 05/13/14 09:22 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: quarterliter]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1717
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: quarterliter
Koenigsegg's engines are much more impressive than the veyrons. 270HP per liter on the new ONE:1. All from a twin turbo v8. No need for a w16 whiz bang engine. And even the most powerful bugatti does not have more than 1340 hp or one megawatt. It's amazing that a small swedish company could build such a competitive super car.


You are completely ignoring that one car is pretty bare bones and slightly ragged when driven hard.

And a Veyron was maxed by Captain Slow from TopGear, probably wearing brogues.
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#3370969 - 05/13/14 09:25 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1717
Loc: London, England
And the CCR produced under 800bhp with the help of two rotrex compressors.

It would give more power on biofuel though. I think it was BioEthanol but don't quote me on that as it was many years ago i watches the first road test of the CCR on TopGear
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