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#3368236 - 05/11/14 06:30 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
FowVay Offline


Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 2174
Loc: Southeastern USA
I hope that my sarcasm is making a bit more sense now. haha

And BTW, my Kawasaki ZX-14R puts down 197 horsepower to the back tire with a mere 1.441 liters of normally aspirated displacement giving it an output of 136.7 horsepower/liter. That Volkswagen on steroids makes 125 horsepower/liter with a ton of blowers and pushers and coolers and whatever else they could find in the Beetle parts bin. Eight liters of displacement and ONLY 1001 HP? tsk tsk tsk.. inefficiency at it's finest.

10W-60 INDEED! wink
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#3368256 - 05/11/14 06:53 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: bigjl]
fdcg27 Online   content


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9190
Loc: OH
The Veyron is neither a great nor a bad idea.
It's merely a couple of million dollars worth of wretched excess that will never be stressed by most of its owners.
Heck, it'll probably rarely be driven by most of its owners.
Still, it offers awesome acceleration and top end, well beyond any other factory standard street car ever built and it even meets American impact and emmissions standars.
Quite an achievement.
Now, in the lightly stressed use this car will see in the hands of a typical owner, a much thinner oil would work just fine.
We also do have a member here who does use twenty grade oils in his various Italian exotics based upon that premise.
If the engine is never run hard enough or long enough to generate any significant heat then it doesn't need an oil grade thick enough to retain adequate viscosity under the most extreme operating conditions.
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#3368304 - 05/11/14 07:50 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: fdcg27]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 9098
Loc: PA
The whole point of the Veyron is to make its speed accessible any day, any time, any place. If you want to go from cruising around to crushing your opponents, you're not supposed to have to stop and think about anything, let alone how thick your oil is.
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#3368438 - 05/11/14 10:11 AM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: fdcg27]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25948
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
The Veyron is neither a great nor a bad idea.
It's merely a couple of million dollars worth of wretched excess that will never be stressed by most of its owners.
Heck, it'll probably rarely be driven by most of its owners.
Still, it offers awesome acceleration and top end, well beyond any other factory standard street car ever built and it even meets American impact and emmissions standars.
Quite an achievement.
Now, in the lightly stressed use this car will see in the hands of a typical owner, a much thinner oil would work just fine.
We also do have a member here who does use twenty grade oils in his various Italian exotics based upon that premise.
If the engine is never run hard enough or long enough to generate any significant heat then it doesn't need an oil grade thick enough to retain adequate viscosity under the most extreme operating conditions.


Silly question, but how are we classifying "factory standard street cars"? Just wondering if we include cars like the Shelby 1000?
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#3368686 - 05/11/14 04:49 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: d00df00d]
fdcg27 Online   content


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9190
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The whole point of the Veyron is to make its speed accessible any day, any time, any place. If you want to go from cruising around to crushing your opponents, you're not supposed to have to stop and think about anything, let alone how thick your oil is.


Yeah, there are so many opportunities to exceed 200 mph for an extended period of time.
If all you wanted to do was to win a little high speed roll-on you'd only be dipping into a fraction of this car's capability in crushing any opponent I can thing of.
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#3368695 - 05/11/14 04:56 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: OVERKILL]
fdcg27 Online   content


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9190
Loc: OH
Okay, how about a car that can be bought new from a dealer with normal factory warranty that is DOT/EPA certified and can be licensed and street driven in all fifty states?
The Veyron clearly would meet all of the above.
Not entirely sure about the Shelby 1000.
I don't think it matters, though, since there are more potent versions of the Veyron than the stripper 1001 bhp model.
The engine also probably has a lot more room for development than would a supercharged Ford truck motor.
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#3368779 - 05/11/14 06:36 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: fdcg27]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25948
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Okay, how about a car that can be bought new from a dealer with normal factory warranty that is DOT/EPA certified and can be licensed and street driven in all fifty states?
The Veyron clearly would meet all of the above.
Not entirely sure about the Shelby 1000.


Not sure on the warranty part of it but as long as you don't buy the 1,200HP version, it is DOT/EPA approved. The 1200HP version is for "off-road use only". IIRC, any Ford dealer that does Shelby can hook you up with one of those.

Quote:
I don't think it matters, though, since there are more potent versions of the Veyron than the stripper 1001 bhp model.
The engine also probably has a lot more room for development than would a supercharged Ford truck motor.


Probably not actually. A variant of the Ford GT holds the world record in the standing mile (283Mph) and there are numerous ones making over 2,000HP out of that "Ford truck motor".

Unicorns usually have a lot less headroom than engines that are based off of something production with massive aftermarket support. The LSx family, the Ford Modular series.....etc.
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#3368785 - 05/11/14 06:44 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
Rendezvous Offline


Registered: 02/22/14
Posts: 21
Loc: NY
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell. The car was built to showcase their ability and they don't use 10w-60 as some sort of band aid. With the millions they spent to design the engine I am sure they spec 10w-60 for a reason.


Edited by Rendezvous (05/11/14 06:45 PM)

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#3368789 - 05/11/14 06:49 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: OVERKILL]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8854
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Not sure on the warranty part of it but as long as you don't buy the 1,200HP version, it is DOT/EPA approved. The 1200HP version is for "off-road use only". IIRC,


If you're talking about the Veyron Grand Sport Vitesse or the Super Sport (both with 1200 bhp), you are absolutely wrong. They are both 50-state street legal.

The warranty on all new Bugattis is 36 months, bumper to bumper, unlimited mileage and includes full service during the warranty period (not counting tires--currently $30,000 for a set).
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#3368790 - 05/11/14 06:51 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: Rendezvous]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8854
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.
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#3368792 - 05/11/14 06:52 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: OVERKILL]
fdcg27 Online   content


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 9190
Loc: OH
Okay, and that variant of the Ford GT could have been sold at any Ford dealer with full warranty as well as EPA/DOT compliance?
The Bug is a unicorn, but it also has displacement that no Ford Mod V-8 can approach.
The basic thousand BHP Veyron has barely more specific output than does a two liter S2000.
The 5.4 liter Ford is already at a much higher level and actually must produce considerably more power that's used to drive its mechanical forced induction.
A US street legal Veyron, complete with all the creature comforts can already crack 250 mph.
There's no doubt that a stripped out (lightened) car with some engine development, which would be easy with a turbocharged engine that wouldn't have to last, could eclipse this Ford GT standing mile record.
Cost wouldn't be a barrier, since VW is richer than Ford and has already spent more on the Bugatti program than they can ever hope to get back.
If VW wants the bragging rights, I'm confident that they could win them.
I do think that EB must be rolling over in his grave, or maybe not.
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#3368796 - 05/11/14 06:59 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
Rendezvous Offline


Registered: 02/22/14
Posts: 21
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.

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#3368809 - 05/11/14 07:10 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: Rendezvous]
G-MAN Offline


Registered: 11/15/02
Posts: 8854
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.


I don't think companies factor in R&D costs (at least ALL of those costs) into the sticker price.

If your figure of $1.62 billion is correct, and they knew they were only going to make 300 cars, they would have to charge $5.4 million for each car just to recoup the R&D, irrespective of how much it cost to actually make the car. The figure I quoted is what VW/Bugatti is saying they lose on each car based on production cost for each car.
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#3368815 - 05/11/14 07:17 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: G-MAN]
Rendezvous Offline


Registered: 02/22/14
Posts: 21
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: G-MAN
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
No expense was spared building the Veyron. They actually lose 6 million dollars for everyone they sell.


Uh, it's actually about $750,000 on each car.


No its not 750k per car. They spent 1.62 billion on R&D alone for the car.


I don't think companies factor in R&D costs (at least ALL of those costs) into the sticker price.

If your figure of $1.62 billion is correct, and they knew they were only going to make 300 cars, they would have to charge $5.4 million for each car just to recoup the R&D, irrespective of how much it cost to actually make the car. The figure I quoted is what VW/Bugatti is saying they lose on each car based on production cost for each car.






The Veyron actually costs VW 5 million dollars to make each one. The car wasn't built to make a profit on.


Edited by Rendezvous (05/11/14 07:17 PM)

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#3368826 - 05/11/14 07:26 PM Re: Bugatti required oil [Re: fdcg27]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 25948
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Okay, and that variant of the Ford GT could have been sold at any Ford dealer with full warranty as well as EPA/DOT compliance?


Of course not, that wasn't my point. I was responding to your claims about the Veyron's engine having more headroom than the Modular, which I don't agree with.

Quote:
The Bug is a unicorn, but it also has displacement that no Ford Mod V-8 can approach.


Are you sure about that? The Veyron is 8.0L, Hurricane/BOSS (which is the SOHC mill currently displacing 6.2L in the F-series) has a displacement ceiling somewhere in the 8.xxL realm. And of course one could stroke the 6.8L V10 as well to north of 8.0L.

Quote:
The basic thousand BHP Veyron has barely more specific output than does a two liter S2000.
The 5.4 liter Ford is already at a much higher level and actually must produce considerably more power that's used to drive its mechanical forced induction.
A US street legal Veyron, complete with all the creature comforts can already crack 250 mph.
There's no doubt that a stripped out (lightened) car with some engine development, which would be easy with a turbocharged engine that wouldn't have to last, could eclipse this Ford GT standing mile record.


But nobody has, which is surprising given how easy you feel this feat is smirk The "usual contenders" in the standing mile competitions have been Nissan GT-R's, Lambo's and the Ford GT. Having a top speed of 250Mph is one thing. Being able to hit 283Mph in one mile is another. And the Hofman Motorsports Ford GT removed the mechanical supercharger in favour of a pair of twins FWIW.

Quote:
Cost wouldn't be a barrier, since VW is richer than Ford and has already spent more on the Bugatti program than they can ever hope to get back.
If VW wants the bragging rights, I'm confident that they could win them.
I do think that EB must be rolling over in his grave, or maybe not.


OK, we could talk mad hypotheticals all day long but that doesn't do anything to validate the point you had attempted to make, which was that the Veyron's engine had more headroom than the Modular. As it stands, there are more examples of the Modular family making more than 2,000HP than there are of the Veyron. In fact there are probably more 2,000+HP Modulars than there are Veyrons.
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