I Don't Change My Oil

[BHopkins]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
JSinton,

Sorry to get a little off topic here, but this should be brief so we can get back on track.

Would you share the Hyundai forum that you visit. My daughter-in-law has a minor electrical issue with her Sonata. She asked me for help, but I haven't been able to diagnose it. I found a Sonata forum and posted a question, but didn't get a single response, even after bumping it a few times. Pretty disappointed. Perhaps the forum you visit will be more helpful? It couldn't hurt for me to try, right?

BTW, I admire how even keeled you are, even when some here get personal in attacks. Great composure. Wish more of us here were like that.

I'd be glad to help you. What is the problem?


When they start up the car and pull out of the driveway, as soon as they are going down the street, the a/c and radio will shut down, including the a/c display. It only lasts a few seconds and then everything comes back on, and stays on.

I thought perhaps it was a relay issue, so I swapped the relay with another. Didn't solve the problem.

Any ideas?

 

[ram_man]

I think ypur experiment will be interesting if it proves me wrong. However you seem very biased. Any point anyone has made you argue about. As I said before get 2 lab reports and then we can talk.
I personally believe the report will show higher wear than a simi
ar car with a proper interval.
However what bothers me is you are lax on the maintenance and some day youll sell it to unsuspecting people and they will get burned by increased wear and im sure youll ask the market value price of good or very good condition even though at that point the engine will be fair at best......not fair to future buyers and owners but I don't think you see it that way.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: BHopkins
Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
JSinton,

Sorry to get a little off topic here, but this should be brief so we can get back on track.

Would you share the Hyundai forum that you visit. My daughter-in-law has a minor electrical issue with her Sonata. She asked me for help, but I haven't been able to diagnose it. I found a Sonata forum and posted a question, but didn't get a single response, even after bumping it a few times. Pretty disappointed. Perhaps the forum you visit will be more helpful? It couldn't hurt for me to try, right?

BTW, I admire how even keeled you are, even when some here get personal in attacks. Great composure. Wish more of us here were like that.

I'd be glad to help you. What is the problem?


When they start up the car and pull out of the driveway, as soon as they are going down the street, the a/c and radio will shut down, including the a/c display. It only lasts a few seconds and then everything comes back on, and stays on.

I thought perhaps it was a relay issue, so I swapped the relay with another. Didn't solve the problem.

Any ideas?
One common problem with Hyundais is the main grounding from the battery, or fuse box, to the body. Often times weird electrical problems can be attributed to bad grounds, on a wide range of cars. It happens especially in rust belt states. The five cent fix is to trace the ground wires where they attach to the body, remove the ground, grind the metal to shiny, etc. Sometimes there are multiple grounds, so look around. Other than that, I'm not much help with the car/problem you describe. Take a visit to hyundai-forums.com. It's the #1 Hyundai forum in the world. Look for a guy named sbr171... he's a real expert Hyundai mechanic.... He knows. If you're lucky, he will help you.

 

[thunderfog]

Originally Posted By: ram_man

However what bothers me is you are lax on the maintenance and some day youll sell it to unsuspecting people and they will get burned by increased wear and im sure youll ask the market value price of good or very good condition even though at that point the engine will be fair at best......not fair to future buyers and owners but I don't think you see it that way.


To be fair, 90% of used cars sold (made up internet percentage) are someone else's problem. I, myself, have been torched due to dishonesty in the used car market, and it was because I was naive enough to take someone at their word (yes, my fault; I was young). I assume all used cars have issues from the get go.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
I think ypur experiment will be interesting if it proves me wrong. However you seem very biased. Any point anyone has made you argue about. As I said before get 2 lab reports and then we can talk.
I personally believe the report will show higher wear than a simi
ar car with a proper interval.
However what bothers me is you are lax on the maintenance and some day youll sell it to unsuspecting people and they will get burned by increased wear and im sure youll ask the market value price of good or very good condition even though at that point the engine will be fair at best......not fair to future buyers and owners but I don't think you see it that way.


Yeah, I know. I'm a little hard headed sometimes. But I like a good give and take.

Don't worry about me taking advantage of some unsuspecting lout, I have no plans to sell the car. It was junk when I bought it six years ago, and I probably drive it till the wheels fall off.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I know of a number of people who did this with diesel motors and a couple diesel Mercedes, one NA 606.

All you need is a bypass like a Frantz to really filter the oil, and an oil with a good base stock to start with, like lets say Amsoil 15w40 diesel oil.

Change the filters every 5k-10k and top off as needed.

I lost track of one of the cars but the owner was well over 100k miles without a change and Blackstone kept sending the sample back good for continued use.


That's been my experience also. I'm simply out to prove it again. I have been repeatedly called less than truthful, but I don't care. I'm not doing this for other people, but if others can benefit from my experience, all the better.


Exactly the oil's base stock never wears out, it just gets contaminated. If you have good filtration like a high quality by pass, and are able to replenish the additives threw make up oil, than their is no reason to change out the lube.

Having said that I highly doubt your cars stock filter is up to the task, but who knows maybe modern little filters have gotten better. I have never seen extended drains done without very good filtration, way beyond what light duty engines come with. I have also never seen them done with a sump capacity of less than 8 quarts.

I'm surprised some of the high annual mileage drivers here have never gotten into by pass filters. Over on the UOA forum their are a number of guys doing 15k mile drains with great results and stock filters. I suspect with the addition of a bypass those drains could be at least doubled if not pushed out to 100k miles or never. Typically once you get good filtration in place and find the right filter/top off interval the UOA should start trending low and keep coming back good for continued use.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
I suspect with the addition of a bypass those drains could be at least doubled if not pushed out to 100k miles or never. Typically once you get good filtration in place and find the right filter/top off interval the UOA should start trending low and keep coming back good for continued use.


What's the cost of replenishing additives? And how do you do that?

The way I see this is you're spending thousands on filtration to save hundreds on oil

 

[Shannow]

I am a fan of bypass filtration, but UOAs and bypass filtration keep me coming back to Doug Hillary's statements that oil analysis tells you about an oil's condemnation limit, not what's going on with the engine.

Bypass filtration moreso, as the filter would be trapping particulates of significance that are being shed by the engine...certainly before they do more damage, but also preventing them from being in the UOA.

 

[ram_man]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I think ypur experiment will be interesting if it proves me wrong. However you seem very biased. Any point anyone has made you argue about. As I said before get 2 lab reports and then we can talk.
I personally believe the report will show higher wear than a simi
ar car with a proper interval.
However what bothers me is you are lax on the maintenance and some day youll sell it to unsuspecting people and they will get burned by increased wear and im sure youll ask the market value price of good or very good condition even though at that point the engine will be fair at best......not fair to future buyers and owners but I don't think you see it that way.


Yeah, I know. I'm a little hard headed sometimes. But I like a good give and take.

Don't worry about me taking advantage of some unsuspecting lout, I have no plans to sell the car. It was junk when I bought it six years ago, and I probably drive it till the wheels fall off.


Well that's good atleast your doing it to junk .but it can't be too bad if it's lasted this long . Lol

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Exactly the oil's base stock never wears out, it just gets contaminated. If you have good filtration like a high quality by pass, and are able to replenish the additives threw make up oil, than their is no reason to change out the lube.

Actually, this is completely wrong. The base oil is what wears most, thanks to base-oil oxidization. This is exactly why you can do longer OCIs with Group IV/V/GTL synthetic than with Group III synthetic, and longer OCIs with Group III synthetic than with Group II conventional, as Group II oxidizes fastest and so on.

When the base oil oxidizes, it produces acids in the oil, which increases the TAN. The oil life is determined by the difference of the TAN from the TBN. When the TAN is too large, the oil is too acidic and will accelerate engine wear greatly. Note that in addition to the base-oil oxidization, sulfur and nitrogen in fuel generates acids in the oil as well, known as sulfation and nitration, respectively.

Bypass filtration only works with soot-generating diesel engines but only to a certain OCI length. The idea is to remove the harmful soot and extend the OCI. Ultimately, oil oxidization and TAN will still determine the end of the oil life, just like in the gasoline engines.

Replenishing the lost oil with makeup oil only removes a fraction of the acids in the oil. It will help, but at a certain mileage, the amount of acids and TAN will become too large for the oil to still provide protection against wear, corrosion, and engine damage.

In addition, an oil that is heavily oxidized and put to a too long OCI could result in engine deposits and sludge. There will be a lot of heavily damaged viscosity-index-improver polymers that could easily lead to sludge formation.

Changing the oil is the single most important maintenance item you can and should do for your car. It's cheap and simple and there is no excuse not to do it.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
OP, as I said, you will need to multiply your wear-metal ppms by 3.5 to adjust for the amount diluted by makeup oil. Then you can divide the adjusted ppms by 10 to get the ppm per 5000 miles.

Actually, your math is a bit off because it is assuming 1 qt added to a 5 qt sump. OP's car has a 3.75 qt sump. I could probably follow your math on any other day, but it has been a long day and my brain is pretty much mush at this point. Can you calculate the correction factor with that new data? I know it will be higher.


Actually, I usually fill with 4.5 quarts with a complete oil change to bring oil to the fill mark. The owner's manual says 4.2 quarts or 4 liters.

Redoing the calculation for 4.5 qt, I get a correction factor of 3.73x for 1 qt of makeup oil added every 4k miles and UOA done at 50k miles. Of course, as with anything, this is only an estimate, and it assumes uniform wear through the 50k OCI, which obviously won't be the case here, as the wear will accelerate greatly with increasing TAN.

This means, when you get your UOA results, multiply Fe, Al, Cu, Cr, Sn, and Pb by 3.73 to get the actual wear amounts. Then you can divide it by 10 to get the average wear for 50k/10 = 5k miles.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Yes, I get it. But that's why I add oil and change the filter... to keep the oil clean... which is the whole point. I don't expect to see much in the way of wear metals... which is the point. I'm simply trying to prove it is possible to follow my system and have excellent oil. I'm not doing oil analysis to detect an engine wear problem. I'm doing analysis to verify my oil maintenance schedule is viable. I suppose then I should do the TBN and the TAN.

With your OCI being so long, TBN has no meaning. You don't even have to get the TBN. The only TBN will come from the last makeup oil added, and chances are that it will be near or below 1.

You should definitely get the TAN. TAN is the biggest concern for such long OCIs. Heavy-duty-truck UOAs usually include the TAN because they do long OCIs. Ultimately, TAN minus TBN is what determines how harmful the used oil is thanks to acids, the higher the "TAN minus TBN", the more harmful and wear-inducing the the used oil is on the engine. Since the TBN will be very small in your case, you can just ignore it and get the TAN. Or get both.

You're right that you are removing some of the acids in the oil by oil loss and replenishing the lost with fresh oil. It looks like the same factor of 3.73 I calculated above goes into calculating how much acids are being removed. I think it comes to 1/3.73 = 27% of acids generated during the 50k OCI still remain in the oil. This could still be very large.

In addition, there are concerns with deposits and sludge with such long OCIs.

As far as wear metals are concerned, as I said, you will need to multiply them with 3.73 to get the actual amounts, as otherwise you're ignoring the wear metals lost for good through oil loss and makeup-oil dilution. Then you can divide the 3.7x-adjusted amounts by 10 to average over 50k/10 = 5k miles.

Send me a PM when you post your UOA and I'll take a look.

 

[Mach1Owner]

I say pull the valve cover after each 50k as well

I like looking at cams... it is my fetish. >.>

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: jsinton
Yes, I get it. But that's why I add oil and change the filter... to keep the oil clean... which is the whole point. I don't expect to see much in the way of wear metals... which is the point. I'm simply trying to prove it is possible to follow my system and have excellent oil. I'm not doing oil analysis to detect an engine wear problem. I'm doing analysis to verify my oil maintenance schedule is viable. I suppose then I should do the TBN and the TAN.

With your OCI being so long, TBN has no meaning. You don't even have to get the TBN. The only TBN will come from the last makeup oil added, and chances are that it will be near or below 1.

You should definitely get the TAN. TAN is the biggest concern for such long OCIs. Heavy-duty-truck UOAs usually include the TAN because they do long OCIs. Ultimately, TAN minus TBN is what determines how harmful the used oil is thanks to acids, the higher the "TAN minus TBN", the more harmful and wear-inducing the the used oil is on the engine. Since the TBN will be very small in your case, you can just ignore it and get the TAN. Or get both.

You're right that you are removing some of the acids in the oil by oil loss and replenishing the lost with fresh oil. It looks like the same factor of 3.73 I calculated above goes into calculating how much acids are being removed. I think it comes to 1/3.73 = 27% of acids generated during the 50k OCI still remain in the oil. This could still be very large.

In addition, there are concerns with deposits and sludge with such long OCIs.

As far as wear metals are concerned, as I said, you will need to multiply them with 3.73 to get the actual amounts, as otherwise you're ignoring the wear metals lost for good through oil loss and makeup-oil dilution. Then you can divide the 3.7x-adjusted amounts by 10 to average over 50k/10 = 5k miles.

Send me a PM when you post your UOA and I'll take a look.


Okay, well this is really good information. This is what I was hoping to find out. I will certainly provide my tests when I get them. My plan now is to use Blackstone and Amsoil for testing. Not sure if the Amsoil test will provide TAN and TBN figures. But certainly I'll get TAN and TBN from Blackstone. I'll post a .pdf of my results on my Hyundai-forums site, and if someone will tell me if I can post it to BITOG, I'll do it here too.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I say pull the valve cover after each 50k as well

I like looking at cams... it is my fetish. >.>


Yes, cam lobes.... really sexy. My valve cover still leaks anyways.

 

[jsinton]

Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I think ypur experiment will be interesting if it proves me wrong. However you seem very biased. Any point anyone has made you argue about. As I said before get 2 lab reports and then we can talk.
I personally believe the report will show higher wear than a simi
ar car with a proper interval.
However what bothers me is you are lax on the maintenance and some day youll sell it to unsuspecting people and they will get burned by increased wear and im sure youll ask the market value price of good or very good condition even though at that point the engine will be fair at best......not fair to future buyers and owners but I don't think you see it that way.




Yeah, I know. I'm a little hard headed sometimes. But I like a good give and take.

Don't worry about me taking advantage of some unsuspecting lout, I have no plans to sell the car. It was junk when I bought it six years ago, and I probably drive it till the wheels fall off.


Well that's good atleast your doing it to junk .but it can't be too bad if it's lasted this long . Lol


The motor was always pretty good. The wiring harnesses and connectors all disintegrated. Don't buy an old Hyundai, they sukshitski.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I say pull the valve cover after each 50k as well

I like looking at cams... it is my fetish. >.>


Yes, cam lobes.... really sexy. My valve cover still leaks anyways.


High lift cams are even sexier.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
When the base oil oxidizes, it produces acids in the oil, which increases the TAN. The oil life is determined by the difference of the TAN from the TBN. When the TAN is too large, the oil is too acidic and will accelerate engine wear greatly. Note that in addition to the base-oil oxidization, sulfur and nitrogen in fuel generates acids in the oil as well, known as sulfation and nitration, respectively.



Great stuff, Gokhan. And it prompts a question:

Is there a way I can estimate TAN from an oil analysis if it has oxidation and nitration numbers? I get my analyses from Polaris, and they will not do TAN measurements for gasoline engines. But they do give oxidation and nitration numbers.

 

[Brent_G]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: jsinton
Originally Posted By: Mach1Owner
I say pull the valve cover after each 50k as well

I like looking at cams... it is my fetish. >.>


Yes, cam lobes.... really sexy. My valve cover still leaks anyways.


High lift cams are even sexier.


The sound of a big cam'd v8 idling is a beautiful sound.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
When the base oil oxidizes, it produces acids in the oil, which increases the TAN. The oil life is determined by the difference of the TAN from the TBN. When the TAN is too large, the oil is too acidic and will accelerate engine wear greatly. Note that in addition to the base-oil oxidization, sulfur and nitrogen in fuel generates acids in the oil as well, known as sulfation and nitration, respectively.

Great stuff, Gokhan. And it prompts a question:

Is there a way I can estimate TAN from an oil analysis if it has oxidation and nitration numbers? I get my analyses from Polaris, and they will not do TAN measurements for gasoline engines. But they do give oxidation and nitration numbers.

I don't have any info regarding how you can estimate the TAN from oxidization, sulfation, and nitration, but there is probably a way. Oxidization, sulfation, and nitration are usually estimated through IR spectroscopy and they need a virgin-oil spectrum to subtract from the used-oil spectrum as background. If they don't have the right virgin oil in their reference database, the numbers could be quite off.