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#3195103 - 11/22/13 06:31 PM Tungsten Disulfide
BigBird57 Offline


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
Has anyone ever used this in PCMO? I have found a site that sells this for $54 per pound. They say you mix this with oil at a rate of 1%-15% by weight.
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#3195128 - 11/22/13 06:56 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7354
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Do they state nominal particle size.
Would you mind inboxing me with their website please.
If no website would contact info be possible.
If the particle size is micron or sub micron I'd like to try it as an oil additive.
I read that it can be added to oil using a blender. If you run the carrier oil in the blender long enough the carrier oil will heat up,then add the tungsten disqualified and blend again.
Unless using something like mmo or another solvent as a carrier that will flash off leaving only the TdS behind.
I could start brewing my own friction modifier in my garage.
Klevee's Frankenbrew.
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#3195136 - 11/22/13 07:05 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21303
Loc: NY
http://www.rosemill.com/category_s/35.htm

I use it to coat bullets, it works well in oil too, although it doesn't stay in suspension as well as MoS2. If you call them and talk to their tech people they'll fill you in on the pro's and con's.
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#3195141 - 11/22/13 07:10 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14639
Loc: Midwest
Unless it is Dialkylammonium Tungstate in oil I wouldn't use in engine oils.
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#3195174 - 11/22/13 07:41 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
spasm3 Offline


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 3851
Loc: out there
From what i have read, its a good friction modifier, but won't stay/maintain a suspension in oil. Lubromoly does seem to have a colloidal property and stays for the most part in suspension. Everything i've read about tungsten disulphide says it falls out immediately.
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#3195208 - 11/22/13 08:18 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
BigBird57 Offline


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
_________________________
It is ok to expect, however you have to inspect.
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#3195209 - 11/22/13 08:19 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
expat Offline


Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Canada
Castrol in the UK, in the 70's advertised their GTX had
"Liquid Tungsten"

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#3195213 - 11/22/13 08:24 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: Clevy]
BigBird57 Offline


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
WS2, 99.9% Pure, 0.6 micron APS @ $54 per lb.
_________________________
It is ok to expect, however you have to inspect.
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#3195216 - 11/22/13 08:30 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: demarpaint]
BigBird57 Offline


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
What vehicle did you use this product? How much additive per quart of oil?
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It is ok to expect, however you have to inspect.
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#3195419 - 11/23/13 07:33 AM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21303
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: BigBird57
What vehicle did you use this product? How much additive per quart of oil?


I had a pound of it which I used for coating bullets, and thought I would take a try at using it in oil. I used it in a 93 Aerostar, and an old edger which had an oil burning issue. I don't remember the dose, IIRC is was about 1 teaspoon/qt of oil. The people at Rosemill suggested the amount. It stopped the edger from using oil. The only downfall is it falls out of suspension and that's why I don't use it any longer. I later tried Lubro Moly MoS2 and found it stayed in suspension, so I stuck with it. The tech people at Rosemill were very helpful at the time with my questions. It would be worth calling them if you're interested in pursuing it further.
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#3195775 - 11/23/13 02:40 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Unless it is Dialkylammonium Tungstate in oil I wouldn't use in engine oils.


Can you suggest a source or reference to this product? Except for some guy applying for a patent, I can find almost zero references to Dialkylammonium Tungstate or Dialkyl Ammonium Tungstate.

There are numerous references to Tungsten Disulfide - basically a dry film lubricant, that is gaining in application popularity.
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#3195784 - 11/23/13 02:59 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: BigBird57]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14639
Loc: Midwest
Here is my problem with dry lubricants such as powdered moly, titanium, and Tungsten being introduced into a crankcase: Unless the dry lubricant is specially processed into a colloidal system with polarity additives, the dry lubricant may fall out of suspension and may not attach itself to friction surfaces, OR if it's a specially processed organo-metallic chemistry. Organo-metallic chemistries are only the ones that should be introduced into a formulated oil and only after extensive lab testing, engine teardown and analysis, and fleet testing.

MoDTC, special titanium compounds and dialkylammonium tungstate are specially processed organo-metallic compounds and the only ones fully soluble in motor oils.


I went to Google and easily found the following references:

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/documents/MSDS/EU/51155.pdf

VANLUBE W-324 - Amine Tungstate AW Synergist found in:

http://www.vanderbiltchemicals.com/ee_co...omestic_Web.pdf


Edited by MolaKule (11/23/13 03:04 PM)
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#3195885 - 11/23/13 05:18 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
MoDTC, special titanium compounds and dialkylammonium tungstate are specially processed organo-metallic compounds and the only ones fully soluble in motor oils.

I went to Google and easily found the following references:

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/documents/MSDS/EU/51155.pdf

VANLUBE W-324 - Amine Tungstate AW Synergist found in:

http://www.vanderbiltchemicals.com/ee_co...omestic_Web.pdf


Okay, but you should have easily found that there was not much information at the Vanderbilt link above, except that VANLUBE W-324, their product containing dialkylammonium tungstate, is listed as a 'new product'.

If you search for VANLUBE W-324, here's the spec sheet. But, there's not much real information here either, particularly as to applications. Four product tests are listed, for one of which one of Vanderbilt's own moly product actually performed slightly better. For all of the tests, it's worth noting that the performance differences between the various products tested was very slight - truly microscopic - if you study the scales on the charts. But, VANLUBE W-324 is an interesting product nonetheless.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Here is my problem with dry lubricants such as powdered moly, titanium, and Tungsten being introduced into a crankcase: Unless the dry lubricant is specially processed into a colloidal system with polarity additives, the dry lubricant may fall out of suspension and may not attach itself to friction surfaces,


MoS2 falling out of suspension is a known issue. Sub-micron particle size seems to be a suitable fix. I've not read of issues involving MoS2 not attaching to metal surfaces.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
... OR if it's a specially processed organo-metallic chemistry. Organo-metallic chemistries are only the ones that should be introduced into a formulated oil and only after extensive lab testing, engine teardown and analysis, and fleet testing.


Where do you get this stuff? It really sounds good, but according to this Wiki's article on organo-metallic chemistry, there's no particular link between this very new technology and oil additives. In any event, the bond between MoS2 and metal surfaces should be mechanical - not chemical. MoS2 is not soluble in oil (or much of anything else). But, I'm clearly not a chemist.

As for "extensive lab testing, engine teardown and analysis and fleet testing" we all want that. Who wouldn't want that kind of information? But if that's the standard to be met before using an additive, there would be no additives.

There's a small body of this information on Molybdenum Disulfide used as an oil additive (but clearly not enough to satisfy detractors). And this is a product which has been in rather widespread industrial use for about a century. We can only hope this type of testing is someday done on the organo-metallic flavors of molybdenum and titanium.
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#3195906 - 11/23/13 05:45 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
... OR if it's a specially processed organo-metallic chemistry. Organo-metallic chemistries are only the ones that should be introduced into a formulated oil


Upon further reflection, I think I was much too kind. You specifically do not want a soluble form of tungsten or molybdenum in the oil (which seems to be the claimed goal of organo-metallic chemistry, at least your reference). As before, small particle size is a suitable fix for settling issues.

If the additive is soluble, it will drain out when the engine stops - just like the oil in the Lucas gear-crank toy mentioned earlier in this thread. In may drain faster or slower - basically the take-away from the Lucas toy. But, once it drains out - no more lubrication. One of the nice features of MoS2 is that it does not drain out. It more-or-less stays put on the bearing surfaces. You get dry-film lubrication at start up, and you can keep driving if you take a bullet in your engine pan. In that narrow sense, MoS2 doesn't make for a 'better oil'. Rather, it's more of an oil substitute, which does not interfere with the motor oil's normal functioning.

But MoS2 (and probably Tungsten Disulfide) is a very slippery substance, it reduces friction, heat and it is highly resistant to extreme pressure. Viewed in that way, it might make a 'better oil'.
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#3196104 - 11/23/13 09:37 PM Re: Tungsten Disulfide [Re: MolaKule]
BigBird57 Offline


Registered: 07/08/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
This is why I like the forum. It sounds like the tungsten disulfide is not quite ready for prime time in PCMO. I can see a use on a bolt action rifle in extremely cold weather. I run Pennzoil Ultra so I will resist the temptation to experiment with this dry lubricant.
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