READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ?

[Clevy]

The North American market has proven that 20 grade oils do not shorten a vehicles useful life. I've yet to see a ford 4.6/5.4 dissolve. In fact those motors are becoming legendary in their ability to rack up miles as most police services and taxi fleets are proving daily.
I'm a thicker is better guy and its taken me a very long time to see the value of 20 grade oils. Heck my mustang got nothing but rotella 5w-40 and a can of MOS2 and what killed it at 200000kms was plug ingestion. I took that engine apart and saw no wear on the cam lobes and the cylinder walls still had visible cross hatching. I bought the car at 50000kms.
I just don't see the benefit any longer of running a thicker than spec oil now. My hemi has had a diet of nothing but 5w-20,bulk oil serviced at the dealer and at 260000 this thing consumes no oil and will rip the tires off at will.
That being said its my winter truck,and once summer hits it will be relegated to trailer towing duty and will get a 30 grade. I'm matching the oil to the use of the vehicle which is the most sensible approach in my opinion.
The Japanese have been specifying thin oils here for over a decade and their engines aren't dissolving,nor do I expect them to any time soon.
This absurd figure of 30% shorter engine life is a joke. Show me 2 identical engines where a 30 grade made the engine last 30% longer in the real world.

 

[LeakySeals]

What are the risk for the non-maintainers (probably 50%) running thin oil? Higher or lower?

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
What are the risk for the non-maintainers (probably 50%) running thin oil? Higher or lower?


I think less risk. I would rather have an oil thicken to a 30 than a 40.

Now that you mention it, I have a friend with a honda civic. He bought it new in 05 and now its got about 250k on it. He runs gtx 5/20 to 10k plus. its only had one tune up and one air filter change. Its pretty icky looking in the fill hole but its still going strong.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: skyship
I thought GM was recommending 5/20's, in fact almost every car sold in the US seems to have 0 or 5/20 stamped in the manual by the CAFE bean counters??


No. GM's dexos1 standard is mostly 5w-30 grades.

As for the original post, there is way too much mention of straight grades, or the author doesn't make an appropriate distinction between multigrades and monogrades.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: skyship
I thought GM was recommending 5/20's, in fact almost every car sold in the US seems to have 0 or 5/20 stamped in the manual by the CAFE bean counters??


No. GM's dexos1 standard is mostly 5w-30 grades.

As for the original post, there is way too much mention of straight grades, or the author doesn't make an appropriate distinction between multigrades and monogrades.


Good to hear GM is sticking with providing correct viscosity advice, rather than the one grade for all Ford attitude.
If you read a post or document talking about grades then you can assume multigrades are involved because single grade oil is no longer in normal use.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
The North American market has proven that 20 grade oils do not shorten a vehicles useful life. I've yet to see a ford 4.6/5.4 dissolve. In fact those motors are becoming legendary in their ability to rack up miles as most police services and taxi fleets are proving daily.
I'm a thicker is better guy and its taken me a very long time to see the value of 20 grade oils. Heck my mustang got nothing but rotella 5w-40 and a can of MOS2 and what killed it at 200000kms was plug ingestion. I took that engine apart and saw no wear on the cam lobes and the cylinder walls still had visible cross hatching. I bought the car at 50000kms.
I just don't see the benefit any longer of running a thicker than spec oil now. My hemi has had a diet of nothing but 5w-20,bulk oil serviced at the dealer and at 260000 this thing consumes no oil and will rip the tires off at will.
That being said its my winter truck,and once summer hits it will be relegated to trailer towing duty and will get a 30 grade. I'm matching the oil to the use of the vehicle which is the most sensible approach in my opinion.
The Japanese have been specifying thin oils here for over a decade and their engines aren't dissolving,nor do I expect them to any time soon.
This absurd figure of 30% shorter engine life is a joke. Show me 2 identical engines where a 30 grade made the engine last 30% longer in the real world.


The North American market has only proven that you must change the oil far more often if you use 20 rather than 30 grades. In terms of engine life the quality of the engines has been improving so that has offset the effects of thin oil use, also not many vehicles have been using 20 grades for long enough to find out what the difference is and because most folks just follow manufacturers advice there won't be too many examples to compare with.
In reality the comparison should be between engines with the same OCI, as the more frequent oil changes with 20 grades are offsetting the effects of thin oil use by avoiding too much shearing.
Even you are admitting by using a 30 grade that the manufacturers advice is not correct for severe duty applications, if you really thought that all the documents and studies on oil viscosity vs engine wear factors were wrong then you would stick with a 20 grade.
The Japanese rarely keep new cars longer than the warranty due to inspection costs and most are then sold overseas, so they won't suffer any real thin oil effects, also they don't drive too fast, tow or have very high temperatures to endure.
One point I would mention is that I was reading a study on thin oil use and it pointed out that the Zinc content becomes critical when using light oils, so if you are chasing fuel economy figures then using a top quality major brand full synthetic that has the maximum amount of Zinc allowed is important. The cheaper dino blend 5/20's are much more likely to cause increased wear than top quality 0/20's, particulary if the OCI is pushing the limits for the useage and engine condition.

 

[Jim Allen]

In the case of the original article, as usual (yawn), somebody starts with a preconceived idea and tries to justify opinion in about five times the number of necessary words and few facts.

He talks about "increased engine wear" with 5W20 as if it were a universal fact... but did he present any studies or factual information to confirm his opinion? I didn't see it. That's because, AFAIK, there are no such studies publicly available. I'm talking a study on an engine design currently rated for 5W20, where it's tested against an identical engine, or engines, with heavier oils. That's the only way any of this will be proven one way or another.

In my opinion, the cited article is nothing more than "tribological masturbation" with little merit and it serves little purpose except to fuel the fires of more argument.

 

[Zako2]

This article is fear mongering and FUD, plain and simple. If 20-grade oil was shortening the engine live by 30%, surely we should have seen this effect in UOAs. Also, the statement "It is not just better, but a must to use SAE 40 oil at 100°F ambient and SAE 50 at 120°F ambient." will not stand scrutiny. Modern engines have a self regulating thermostats to say in a target temperature band. I am sure Ford, GM, and others are not stupid. They know the cars will be driven in Texas, Arizona, Nevada, etc in summer.

 

[FoxS]

Don't forget the author said 15w or even 20w may result in less start up wear than 5w and even 10w.

Interesting to see how many people hold the author to be an authority after such an assertion.

 

[skyship]

If 20 grade oils were best for engine life expectancy then the manufacturers would recommend their use outside the US or Japan, but apart from some new generation engines and hybrids they don't. It is obvious from the advice that the manufacturers provide outside the US that grades other than 20's should be used under certain circumstances such as severe service use or higher temperatures.
If you look at the various studies or articles about the effect of viscosity vs wear, none of the writers has any commercial bias in terms of which oil you use, they just base their contents on sound engineering principles and nothing has changed about how the oil film thickness in a bearing is effected by oil viscosity to change the conclusions of those articles.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: bubbajoe_2112
Originally Posted By: Danh
We have a real-world, large number comparison of 5w/20 vs 5w/30 longevity going on right now: Ford vs GM. Ford has recommended 5w/20 for at least a decade while GM continues with 5w/30.

If 5w/20 really shortened engine life by 30%, don't you think Ford would be suffering in comparison to GM? It seems to me there is no real perceived difference in engine longevity between the two. The bottom line seems to be that 5w/20 allows an engine to last every bit as long as 5w/30 if the engine was designed with it in mind. Also, let's not forget that a disproportinate amount of wear occurs on cold start-ups, where a lighter grade of oil is helpful.

But as others have said, if you feel beter going "thicker", have at it.


Yep, and don't forget that Honda has been running 0W20 in Japan since 2001 with no issues...and the key point is: engines designed to run on 0w20/5w20 have shown no issues.
So I guess GM "doesn't know how to" design a motor to run on 20?

 

[sopususer]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
So I guess GM "doesn't know how to" design a motor to run on 20?


I guess we're about to find out as their bread and butter vehicles, the new 2014 Silverado and Sierra V8's are to be speced for 0w-20.

Oil capacity has been increased to six quarts for the 4.3L V-6 and eight quarts for the V-8 engines. All engines use GM’s Dexos oil for increased fuel efficiency and longer oil life, and V-8s are engineered to use 0W/20 oil to improve lubrication and reduce friction.

GM EcoTec Engines

 

[gfh77665]

No need to beat this to death any more. For me, I WILL use 5-20 as long as I am in warranty.

After that, I will use 5-30, can't hurt, "might" just help. End of story.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
bigjl, don't label people as xenophobic just because they point out that you ramble.

Especially not within another rambling post.

Don't state that 20 weight will take you from 6mpg to 6.06mpg as made up numbers and then claim you have meaningful facts from a Nissan Pathfinder. You are doing what has become classic on this site - make an opinion, select a highly limited datapoint, and then ignore a datapoint of far more significance ie Ford Motor Company's actual fuel economy spec that requires a saving in fuel if they are to approve a 20 weight vs a 30 weight.

Don't make stupid comments like why don't I go to Cuba.

Learn to argue with facts that have weight instead of claiming limited datapoints as facts. You're copying too many others who do just that and rambling to boot. Every post you write, one sentence is on the topic then we get a long diatribe about your life and what oil you put in your Clio. Boring!


And your "diatribe" is more relevant?

This is an oil forum bellend.

Anything to do with OIL is relevant dude.

I take it you are aware why what the target for using low HTHS oil is in Europe?

From what I have read it is 0.5% over a 15w40 oil.

The US target for CAFE I think was mentioned on here last year and I think it was similar.

You seriously don't understand why I made mention of Cuba?

Do you read other posts.

Or just sit there waiting for people from Europe to turn up to abuse and to direct their posts?

You don't think it strange that you seem to be more interested in where non US/Canada residents live than their opinion.

That will only reflect on you negatively, a closed mind is a limited mind.

But, seriously you didn't read the bit about Cuba did you?

This is a thread about engine longevity.

Specifically 5w20 and 5w30 but the more different opinions and data that is shared the more balanced the conclusion.


And I didn't ignore Fords target for going from 5w30 to 5w20, I didn't comment on it.

They are two different things.

But I did state the Ford target for using low HTHS oils.

0.5% over a 15w40 oil.

Also please look up sarcasm.

For you it might be easier to use something such as Wikipedia as a dictionary may be rather technical.

Now run along and don't forget to look both ways when you cross the road.

I am sure that is mummy calling you for dinner.

And don't worry about what I post, ON AN OIL FORUM.

 

[bigjl]

Originally Posted By: skyship
If 20 grade oils were best for engine life expectancy then the manufacturers would recommend their use outside the US or Japan, but apart from some new generation engines and hybrids they don't. It is obvious from the advice that the manufacturers provide outside the US that grades other than 20's should be used under certain circumstances such as severe service use or higher temperatures.
If you look at the various studies or articles about the effect of viscosity vs wear, none of the writers has any commercial bias in terms of which oil you use, they just base their contents on sound engineering principles and nothing has changed about how the oil film thickness in a bearing is effected by oil viscosity to change the conclusions of those articles.


Watch out you don't upset FoxS!

All these comments about oil are not relevant in an oil forum, apparently.

 

[fdcg27]

Oil change intervals have been shorter in this country than anywhere in Europe for many years.
This has nothing to do with the viscosity grade used and everything to do with the relative prices of motor oil.
Motor oil here is dirt cheap by European standards.
Thick oil may be required in Euro applications simply to accomodate the long drain intervals, not to provide for better protection on the 7.5K-10K drain intervals that are typical for cars used in North America.
I know that the OM of my old BMW recommends absurdly thick oils for summer use, like 20W-50, and the MM will allow for pretty long drains, if you follow it, which I don't.
The thicker oils recommended for Euro cars as well as for most cars sold in Europe are probably intended to accomodate a greater amount of shearing and fuel dilution over a longer change interval while providing adequate engine protection.
They do not provide superior protection over the drain intervals typically used in North America.
No American or Japanese car sold in this market during the mid 'nineties called for anything thicker than a thirty grade.
Note that I wrote "car" and there were no Japanese nor American diesel cars sold in this market at that time.
I think this is the answer to this age old question.
Thicker oils are recommended in markets where long drain intervals are required for economic reasons, while more optimal grades are recommended in those markets where oil is cheap enough to allow for more conservative drain intervals.
Maybe European drain intervals are too long while those in North America are optimal?

 

[electrolover]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
No need to beat this to death any more. For me, I WILL use 5-20 as long as I am in warranty.

After that, I will use 5-30, can't hurt, "might" just help. End of story.


Well said! End of story guys!

 

[lockguy]

I have a honda fit with 225k thats used 5w20 from day one. I have beat the [censored] out of that car running [censored] near stock car RPM's everywhere I go. 225k and still spins like a top.

I also have a ford transit connect service van that uses 5w20. One oil change I accidently used a 5w30 and did not see a difference in fuel economy.

I don't think it makes a big difference in wear or effeciency. Just change the oil on schedule.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Oil change intervals have been shorter in this country than anywhere in Europe for many years.
This has nothing to do with the viscosity grade used and everything to do with the relative prices of motor oil.
Motor oil here is dirt cheap by European standards.
Thick oil may be required in Euro applications simply to accomodate the long drain intervals, not to provide for better protection on the 7.5K-10K drain intervals that are typical for cars used in North America.
I know that the OM of my old BMW recommends absurdly thick oils for summer use, like 20W-50, and the MM will allow for pretty long drains, if you follow it, which I don't.
The thicker oils recommended for Euro cars as well as for most cars sold in Europe are probably intended to accomodate a greater amount of shearing and fuel dilution over a longer change interval while providing adequate engine protection.
They do not provide superior protection over the drain intervals typically used in North America.
No American or Japanese car sold in this market during the mid 'nineties called for anything thicker than a thirty grade.
Note that I wrote "car" and there were no Japanese nor American diesel cars sold in this market at that time.
I think this is the answer to this age old question.
Thicker oils are recommended in markets where long drain intervals are required for economic reasons, while more optimal grades are recommended in those markets where oil is cheap enough to allow for more conservative drain intervals.
Maybe European drain intervals are too long while those in North America are optimal?


The reason that OCI's have been shorter in the US is mostly because of Iffy lube marketing, because they often suggest a shorter OCI than the manufacturer. The other odd thing is that the OCI quoted for US cars is often based on cheaper oils, so it is bound to be shorter, although that does vary between manufacturers. For petrol cars the lower fuel quality specs do make a slight difference for some types of engine. I also get the impression that some dealers want you to return for servicing more often.
I agree that thicker oils are better for longer OCI's as they do allow for shearing, but the reason for selecting longer OCI's in the EU is that it is in fact good for the engine, although most of that story relates to the fact that a clean oil filter is far less effective than a dirty one and the new oil interaction with old oil. If you do 3K OCI's for an engine where a 10K OCI has been calculated as the optimum figure your engine will be subject to more not less wear. When you calculate the optimum OCI what is of concern is the rate that wear metals accumulate in the oil rather than the final figure and that rate is rather high for about the first 1K miles, then it goes flat for a long time until the additives run out and it increases. The closer the OCI is the the start of that uptrend the better the final result.
The car manufacturers do give the correct advice to owners outside the US and Japan in terms of both which oil to use and the associated OCI.

 

[steve20]

Originally Posted By: sopususer
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
So I guess GM "doesn't know how to" design a motor to run on 20?


I guess we're about to find out as their bread and butter vehicles, the new 2014 Silverado and Sierra V8's are to be speced for 0w-20.

Oil capacity has been increased to six quarts for the 4.3L V-6 and eight quarts for the V-8 engines. All engines use GM’s Dexos oil for increased fuel efficiency and longer oil life, and V-8s are engineered to use 0W/20 oil to improve lubrication and reduce friction.

GM EcoTec Engines



Thanks very much for the link SU--a wealth of information if you are a GM person, like myself