What's The Difference? Approvals vs. Specs vs. Requirements

[kschachn]

Please advise what you perceive as baseless or I can't really engage in meaningful conversation.

It is 100 percent factual that engine replacements are almost always approved by the regional tech from the manufacturer. I assume you concede that certainly dealerships don't approve them.

Fact 2 is in an engine replacement it is almost certain the manufacturer will require a record of all required maintenances. I assume you are not arguing that?


So apparently you are arguing that a regional tech would not decline a warranty claim if you used a non recommend oil is that correct?


Do you have any evidence to support that odd conclusion?

I know if I want to deviate from requirements I always email the manufacturer and they will tell you if it impacts the warranty. Do you have something like that in writing that they would be approving claims for you if you use a non recommended oil?

I would suggest that you never deviate from what is stated in your manual in any way.

The fact remains that in the case of 504 00 oil in my VW as opposed to 508 00 the engine is protected better and therefore helps to preclude and prevent a warranty claim.

 

[bhvrdr]

I wouldn’t advocate ignorant deviation from the manual recommendations.

If you want to be assured claims are approved I wouldn't advise ANY deviation from the manufacturer requirements.

The ignorant part is the subjective part.

 

[bhvrdr]

I would suggest that you never deviate from what is stated in your manual in any way.

Wise move. Even in rare cases a manufacturer makes a poor recommendation and you have a failure you'll still be covered or you can be part of a successful class action like we've seen dozens of times but if you deviate then you are out of luck.

 

[kschachn]

Wise move. Even in rare cases a manufacturer makes a poor recommendation and you have a failure you'll still be covered or you can be part of a successful class action like we've seen dozens of times but if you deviate then you are out of luck.

Yeah I took my chances I guess as did the dealership.

 

[Skippy722]

Actually they “spec” a minimum HT/HS. Some approvals then give allowable grades but not all. The requirement is for HT/HS as that is the defining technical basis.

Allowable grades when a minimum or maximum HT/HS is specified is rather silly but that’s marketing.

Your correct, the document I misread from Lubrizol states HTHS for VW 508 00/509 00 must be greater than or equal to 2.6 and less than or equal to 2.9 and are “typically” 0w20.

 

[UG_Passat]

Which of those call for a HTHS of 3.5? ACEA 5 specs 2.6 to 2.9. VW 508 00/509 00 and Porsche C 20 both spec 0w20.

VW502/VW505/VW504/VW507
Porsche A40/C30
ACEA C3
ACEA A3/B4
BMW LL-04
Mercedes Benz 229.51/229.5/226.5
Renault RN0710
PSA B71 2296

So, it doesn't meet or exceed most of the claimed specs.

So, does it have the green marker dye required for VW508/509?

 

[Skippy722]

VW502/VW505/VW504/VW507
Porsche A40/C30
ACEA C3
ACEA A3/B4
BMW LL-04
Mercedes Benz 229.51/229.5/226.5
Renault RN0710
PSA B71 2296

So, it doesn't meet or exceed most of the claimed specs.

So, does it have the green marker dye required for VW508/509?

They don’t claim the 0w20 “meets or exceeds” any of those on either the page you screenshot nor the data sheet.

No idea on the magic dye, I’m running the Supercar 0w20 in my Ram and the van still has Premium Plus in it.

 

[UG_Passat]

They don’t claim the 0w20 “meets or exceeds” any of those on either the page you screenshot nor the data sheet.

No idea on the magic dye, I’m running the Supercar 0w20 in my Ram and the van still has Premium Plus in it.

View attachment 148337

It says it meets or exceeds all of the HTHS min 3.5 MPa specs on their retailer page.

If it doesn't have the green dye marker, then it doesn't meet the 508/509 specification.

I'm sure a technical rep from HPL will clarify that 0w20 doesn't meet the HTHS min 3.5 MPa specs, and will have to talk to marketing to fix it, so it's accurate.

Even on the supercar 0w20, HPL marketing was halfway honest with the HTHS requirement,.... which means Supercar 0w20 doesn't meet or exceed the listed HTHS min 3.5 MPa requirements. Saying it has an additive package that meets the those requirements, unless they ran all the tests verifying it meets all of those requirements.

 

[Skippy722]

It says it meets or exceeds all of the HTHS min 3.5 MPa specs on their retailer page.

If it doesn't have the green dye marker, then it doesn't meet the 508/509 specification.

I'm sure a technical rep from HPL will clarify that 0w20 doesn't meet the HTHS min 3.5 MPa specs, and will have to talk to marketing to fix it, so it's accurate.

Even on the supercar 0w20, HPL marketing was halfway honest with the HTHS requirement,.... which means Supercar 0w20 doesn't meet or exceed the listed HTHS min 3.5 MPa requirements. Saying it has an additive package that meets the those requirements, unless they ran all the tests verifying it meets all of those requirements.

I’m still not seeing where they claim that. To me they’ve simply broken it up by which viscosity applies to which specs, so the 0w20 only applies to VW 508 00/509 00, VW TL 52577, Porsche C20, ACEA C5, and API SN Plus specs. The rest similarly list the specs and then which viscosity applies to them.

For example if you want a Porsche C30 oil you want either 0w30 or 5w30. But if you want a MB 229.51 or BMW LL-04 you should only use 5w30. Only the 5w40 meets Porsche A40.

 

[OVERKILL]

It says it meets or exceeds all of the HTHS min 3.5 MPa specs on their retailer page.

If it doesn't have the green dye marker, then it doesn't meet the 508/509 specification.

I'm sure a technical rep from HPL will clarify that 0w20 doesn't meet the HTHS min 3.5 MPa specs, and will have to talk to marketing to fix it, so it's accurate.

Even on the supercar 0w20, HPL marketing was halfway honest with the HTHS requirement,.... which means Supercar 0w20 doesn't meet or exceed the listed HTHS min 3.5 MPa requirements. Saying it has an additive package that meets the those requirements, unless they ran all the tests verifying it meets all of those requirements.

Are you missing where the grade is listed beside the specs?

As @Skippy722 notes, they only claim the performance requirements of VW 508 00/509 00, VW TL 52577, Porsche C20, ACEA C5 and SN Plus for the 0W-20.

 

[The Critic]

Do you have any evidence to support that odd conclusion?

I know if I want to deviate from requirements I always email the manufacturer and they will tell you if it impacts the warranty. Do you have something like that in writing that they would be approving claims for you if you use a non recommended oil?

He does not, he always repeats that statement but has never been down that road himself. It is strictly his interpretation of the circumstances.

If there is an extended warranty or goodwill claim where maintenance records are being requested, you are unlikely to win if you are using an oil that is not approved.

 

[The Critic]

Yeah I took my chances I guess as did the dealership.

Keep in mind that your experience will vary from dealer to dealer. A lot of this has to do with your dealer's warranty standing (with the mfg) and how good their warranty clerk is.

I'm sure that if you presented your 504 vs. 508 to 10 different dealers, it is unlikely for all of the responses to match.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Back to your title: Requirement = Specification(s) and approval means certification.

Some oil companies use the "Recommended for" language is which not indicative as certified, but close enough for their marketing.

ACEA specs are self-approval. API and Manufacturer's specs an oil company have to pay for certification. So, "Recommended for" or "Meets or Exceeds" is their marketing language around it.

Example:
View attachment 148238

HPL Euro 0w20 claims to meet or exceed various specs that require a minimum HTHS of 3.5 MPa. This is just false advertising, as the Euro 0w20 HTHS is around 2.6 MPa. But, it's the marketing language for those that don't know better.

No it doesn't. You're not reading the page correctly. They're listing the applicable certs for every weight which is available under the Euro line. The page doesn't change just because you choose a different weight from the drop down menu.

 

[AEHaas]

To my knowledge, the oil company must pay the API $5,500 per year and a per gallon sold fee in order to put the API label on that container of oil. The API does not test the oil to meet the dozens of test parameters required of say an SN oil. I would guess the same is true of every other world-wide "certification".

"Meets or exceeds" means the oil company paid the fee yet tells you little about the actual performance of said oil. Oils I have used over the last few decades show little wear in my engines even though I use a grade or two less than specified by the engine manufacturer. And these oils have none of those other certifications.

There is no guarantee the oil meeting some certification is any better than an oil without the certification.

Engine failures are probably unrelated to just about any name brand oil when properly maintained. Use what you are comfortable using but do not be afraid of having to use something else.

Ali

 

[Tom NJ]

To my knowledge, the oil company must pay the API $5,500 per year and a per gallon sold fee in order to put the API label on that container of oil.

Just to clarify, the annual API license fee of $5,500 covers all products sold by the company. The per gallon fee only applies to the total volume sold in excess of 750,000 gallons, thereby giving a break to small companies. This per gallon fee is only a paltry 0.8 cents per gallon or 0.2 cents per quart, and only applies to the amount sold over the first 750,000 gallons!

Since owner's manuals tell car owners to look for these API certification marks to maintain their warranties, the marks are very valuable for marketing and their presence undoubtedly increases sales. In my opinion these small fees are hardly an excuse for companies who say they do not carry the API certification marks because of the fees.

The API does not test the oils against the complete specifications, but does require the company seeking the license to submit the oil formulation and full test data from qualified labs, and does spot check oils in the field for key properties to assure the formulation is being followed.

Per API:
Benefits from API licensing include independent verification of the quality of licensed oils sold in the marketplace; listing in the real-time on-line Directory of EOLCS licensees; participation in programs to ensure precision of new tests used to qualify oils ; and rights to use the API quality marks (the API Service Symbol “Donut” and Certification Marks “Starburst” or “Shield”), symbols of quality that identify licensed engine oils to consumers. This includes using the marks on licensed oil packages, in media, and on promotional materials.

API Fees