I was reading about sludge buildup in engines, and the meat of this topic seems to indicate that it's a result of not changing your oil when you should, and that it is the additive breakdown which forms the sludge. If this is true, could it be that Valvoline may be less prone to sludge since their oil is not as jam packed with additives as compared to the other brands? From what the article said, sludge is the end result of additive breakdown... Or is what I stated far fetched?
SLUDGE
- Thread starter grbr95
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I'm no expert but I would think the quality of the base stock would have a lot to do with it along with the depletion of additives.
additive package, basestocks, engine operational condition, environmental reasons, temperature(ambient temp inc.),engine designs,etc. all have direct impact to your OCI and sludge formation
So many factors, as Quest says, as well as engine design, PCV effectiveness, operation temperatures, moisture, etc. Less additives does not mean less sludge, it could mean the opposite, that additives will be depleted sooner, then sludge forms. Too many factors to boil it down like that....
What does sludge look like? I have found some brown gravy like substance on the engine oil cap before. Should I be worried? Oil change was done 3 months ago (2k km).
MolaKule
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Here is a short explanation of black sludge:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=000017
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=56;t=000017
zimmerDN, what you found was merely a harmless accumulation of condensed moisture and oil at the relatively cooler point (plastic, I bet, yes?). Finding that mayonaise consistencey glop is all the more likely in really cold weather operation which results in incomplete warmup. It wasn't sludge, though the conditions that encourage the formation of that condensate also encourage the actual formation of sludge on the engine's hot parts, too. During your winter months, adhere to the "severe service" oil change schedule in your owner's manual.
Additives help prevent, not promote the formation of sludge.
I know I've posted this link several times, but take a look at the pictures of sludge generated by trying to run an API SA motor oil(no detergent additives) thru the Sequence VG engine test.
http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000346479.cfm?x=b11,0,w
The API SA oil only only made it thru 168 hrs of the 216 hr test, before it was halted due to sludge.
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man II:
And the hits just keep on comin'!
You have to love it.
My truck does tons of short (less than 2 miles one way) trips and has no sludge.
Wonder how that happens?
Cheers, Bill
PS:
I've NEVER done that with any car/truck I've owned and never had a problem getting hundreds of thousands of miles on them...
Wonder how that happens?
When I steal cars I drive them slowly to avoid attention.
Adding to the confusion, VWoA and 1.8T engine owners refer to heat-generated coke as "sludge." In this case, the turbo simply cooks the oil. A good synthetic on a tight OCI is the only defense.
A friend of mine was an automotive machinist working in the oil fields shortly after WW2. He told of overhauling industrial Chrysler flathead sixes that were used for some sort of pumping. These engines ran 24/7, only being shut off for oil changes/tuneups so they certainly were not short runs and were virtually always at full operating temps. He said they sludged up so badly that the crankcase was full and the crank throws had scooped out troughs through the sludge. He suspected it was from poor crankcase ventilation.
Joe
Yeppers, poor crankcase ventilation, combined w/ higher OCI's on less than ideal oils, high heat from turbos, "frictionless pistions" which allow more blowby....all these acted in concert to turn my beloved 9-5's into sludge/coke-prone...
That article only deepens my desire to pull the sump and scrape clean my pickup mesh.
That article only deepens my desire to pull the sump and scrape clean my pickup mesh.
Um OK thanks for the flames.........
small ford engine in station wagon, oil change every 3K. Penzoil. ran very short trips, like 5 miles or less.
Sludge cracked the intake manafold, VC has to be peeled off with powered by ford was imbossed into the sludge.
Yes its is very possiable for a engine to overcool and never really get to opreating temps for oil to burn off the crud.
small ford engine in station wagon, oil change every 3K. Penzoil. ran very short trips, like 5 miles or less.
Sludge cracked the intake manafold, VC has to be peeled off with powered by ford was imbossed into the sludge.
Yes its is very possiable for a engine to overcool and never really get to opreating temps for oil to burn off the crud.
Oh, I'll agree with you. As far as 9-5's go, the folks in the North who do mucho short trips in the cold have the most problems. Saab even put it in their TSB on the subject. Just b/c one car is stout enough to handle it doesn't mean all models are ideally suited for it. It's apples and oranges. If water and fuel don't get evaporated off by hot oil, the additive pack has to bite the bullet and neutralize them. Therefore the additive pack gets depleted much more quickly. This isn't the first time this has been brought up. No one seemed to have a problem with it before.
Molakule provided us with a link to his very complete explanation of sludge.
Problem is many members ignore the links posted in these threads.
Per the link, sludge is also generated by:
- High Engine Temperatures
- Inoperative PCV valves/systems
- Small Crankcase Capacity/Low Oil Levels
So, sludging is a broader problem than just low oil operating temperatures.
The Chrysler & Toyota sludge prone engines actually have hot spots in them.
Simply running an engine till it's hot is not a guarantee against formation of sludge.
Problem is many members ignore the links posted in these threads.
Per the link, sludge is also generated by:
- High Engine Temperatures
- Inoperative PCV valves/systems
- Small Crankcase Capacity/Low Oil Levels
So, sludging is a broader problem than just low oil operating temperatures.
The Chrysler & Toyota sludge prone engines actually have hot spots in them.
Simply running an engine till it's hot is not a guarantee against formation of sludge.
MolaKule also said sludge formation is a very complex process.
Why do you think an inoperative PCV system would be helpful in sludge formation?
B/c a it prevents oil and water vapor as well as any other vaporized fuel byproducts from initially settling in the oil after entering the crankcase as WELL as allowing fuel and water vapors evaporated off of warm oil to escape and get another chance at combustion. Frequent short trips don't give a PCV system a chance to do its job AND they expose any hot spots as the radiator and oil have not spread the heat around.
Getting the oil up to proper temp is no garantee against sludge formation if there are other problems but it will certainly help if high blowby is a contributing factor-which it certainly is in the case of Saabs.
Why do you think an inoperative PCV system would be helpful in sludge formation?
B/c a it prevents oil and water vapor as well as any other vaporized fuel byproducts from initially settling in the oil after entering the crankcase as WELL as allowing fuel and water vapors evaporated off of warm oil to escape and get another chance at combustion. Frequent short trips don't give a PCV system a chance to do its job AND they expose any hot spots as the radiator and oil have not spread the heat around.
Getting the oil up to proper temp is no garantee against sludge formation if there are other problems but it will certainly help if high blowby is a contributing factor-which it certainly is in the case of Saabs.
Well speaking from Ford/chev experience and a mechanic for 20 years.
Found short trip where the #1 problem.
Other makes I have no clue.Never heard of HIGH temps causing sludge tho, new one to me.
Thinking you are referring to turbo cars right ??
My family must be doing something right, never, ever had a sludge problem in any of cars.
Used qakerstate oil, fram filters.
Guess I should have said had no clue on imports.
Older oils where more prone to sludge then todays oils right ??
Here is from your LINK:
Oil sludge is a solid or gel in motor oil caused by the oil gelling or solidifying, usually at temperatures lower than 100 degrees Celsius. Sludge can be a major contributor to engine problems, and can require the engine to be replaced if the damage is severe. Sludge is usually caused by the presence of water in the oil, and can accumulate with us.
Water is NOT being boiled off due to cold engine on short trips.
Takes MILES to warm an engine, like 20 miles or more...........
Found short trip where the #1 problem.
Other makes I have no clue.Never heard of HIGH temps causing sludge tho, new one to me.
Thinking you are referring to turbo cars right ??
My family must be doing something right, never, ever had a sludge problem in any of cars.
Used qakerstate oil, fram filters.
Guess I should have said had no clue on imports.
Older oils where more prone to sludge then todays oils right ??
Here is from your LINK:
Oil sludge is a solid or gel in motor oil caused by the oil gelling or solidifying, usually at temperatures lower than 100 degrees Celsius. Sludge can be a major contributor to engine problems, and can require the engine to be replaced if the damage is severe. Sludge is usually caused by the presence of water in the oil, and can accumulate with us.
Water is NOT being boiled off due to cold engine on short trips.
Takes MILES to warm an engine, like 20 miles or more...........
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