Would like to have your opinion on this additive!

[kilou]

Name:
----
ZENOX

Application:
-----------
engine oil additive (friction fighter)

Properties:
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ceramic particles
Main benefits:
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* less wear
* more low rpm torque
* better mpg
* engine less noisy

Website:
-------
http://www.zenox.com

Some users who have tried it have nothing but praises about it. It seems that the size of particles is the smallest ever produced for engine oil additives and thus doesn't present any drawbacks as other solid lubrication additives.

Please let me know your thoughts about this engine oil additive, everything you fear or question about it and what would be the dangers in using this additive.

Thanks

 

[Ugly3]

The performance of an additive is inversly proportional to the "glitz" in their advertising.

 

[kilou]

I'm not sure this is a well-known scientific rule

Please let me know what sounds bad with this additives. The main complaint I heard with solid lubrication additives is that particles can clog the oil filter or settle down the oil pan. It seems that this problem is overcomed since a long time with colloidal suspension and with 0.24 microns particles, this sounds not possible.

Forget about the flashy website and see only the specifications. What information should we get or ask to this manufacturer to have a good idea whether this product is safe or not? Don't care about the performance or mpg gain if any.

 

[kilou]

One more information:

I'm in contact with someone who sell this product and he told me that the ceramics used in Zenox is Boron Nitride in hexagonal form (h-BN). It is NOT the abrasive cuic form c-BN.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the goods and bads of h-BN as solid lubricant part of an engine oil additive?

Look at this VERY interesting link:
http://www.advceramics.com/geac/downloads/documents/81506.pdf

What's your thoughts?

[ February 13, 2005, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: kilou ]

 

[Big Jim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kilou:


Look at this VERY interesting link:
http://www.advceramics.com/geac/downloads/documents/81506.pdf

What's your thoughts?

---

Very interesting. The first web site screamed of "SNAKE OIL". This one looks like it may have some substance.

If it is beneficial I'm sure that the oil companies will show an interest quickly enough.

I'll adopt a "wait and see" stance on this. The first site was a turn off with no substance.

 

[kilou]

The first site is advertisment for the product so it's normal to lack some substance here

I don't want to wait that Mobil1 and others use BN in their oil because if this is so efficient at reducing wear, they most surely wont use it as they will have trouble dealing with car manufacturers who want you to change your car each 100,000 miles... The best they would do is buy the licence and care so that nobody hear about this thing again.

All I know for now on this ZENOX is that it uses extremely pure hexagonal Boron Nitride as solid lubricant in a synthetic ester basestock. What more information should I ask for in order to know more about the potential nocivity of the product?

 

[T-Keith]

Holy Crap. The volume was all the way up when I clicked on that link.

 

[kilou]

quote:

---

Originally posted by T-Keith:
Holy Crap. The volume was all the way up when I clicked on that link.

---

Sorry! I never switch on my speakers while online since a similar experience in the past

 

[MolaKule]

Some time ago GE Advanced ceramics sent me a glitzy brochure for their Boron Nitride additives.

What is interesting is they only compare their BN's with powders such as Moylbdenum disulfide MOS2 and Antimony Disulfide SbS2. While the powder forms are good for greases and heavy industrial oils, they have no place in engine oils. You will also notice their powders only provide about a 100 point (kgf) advantage over MoS2 in the weld point tests.

BTW, the AVERAGE particle size for their smallest particle is 0.7 um.

GE Advanced Ceramics did NOT compare soluble Moly's and Antimony's with their products.
And I have not found any literature that speaks to using BN in motor oil formulations. None of the STLE or SAE literature has made mention of using the BN powders in PCMO's.


Maybe I'll order some samples, but as of now, I remain highly skeptical for its application in PCMO's.

quote:

---

The performance of an additive is inversly proportional to the "glitz" in their advertising.

---

I feel this way too!

 

[kilou]

I don't know the regular price but my seller may have it for around 28 euros (outside tax). This is quite expensive but price is not the topic here. Anyway if someone is interested in testing this product, please send a PM and I'll redirect you to the seller I know. The online shop is not yet available.

Except the fact that no litterature exist concerning application of BN in engine oils, what makes you skeptical Molakule (and others)? What point should we clarify? Zenox particle size is 0.24microns as opposed to the 0.7 microns of GE advanced ceramics. Does it makes any difference?

As for litterature, I found this:
http://www.jfe-steel.co.jp/archives/en/ksc_giho/no.28/e28-017-025.pdf

In this article, the authors say that haxagonal BN is suitable as solid lubricant for high temperature applications. Not sufficient for engine application?

 

[John K]

I think that makes it cost about $35 US, which is expensive in my book. Most additives marketed here have been proven over time to be worthless, and oils today are quite good, so what is the point? Do you want to experiment with your engine for an indefinite period of time to possibly find out that you haven't just wasted your money, you may in fact have done some damage to your engine? Most people are convinced that they are going the extra mile to ensure their engine lasts by buying xyz additive. In fact, they may upset the additive balance of the oil they are using. So instead of a "belt and suspenders" approach, they end up with neither belt nor suspenders. Consumers are gullible, and have been taken advantage of in the past by Slick 50, Prolong, Dura??? and whatever name you can come up with. This one sounds like some good new technology, but as I said before, how long do you want an engine to last if you can get the long life experienced by so many these days??? Most people who get 200k or 300k out of an engine report frequent oil changes and good maintenance. Why do people keep wanting some magic bullet for a problem that doesn't exist? Just my $.02.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

Zenox particle size is 0.24 microns as opposed to the 0.7 microns of GE advanced ceramics. Does it makes any difference?
In this article, the authors say that haxagonal BN is suitable as solid lubricant for high temperature applications. Not sufficient for engine application?

---

Zenox is stating the smallest particle size. The particle size can range anywhere from 0.25 um to 2.5 um. If someone runs bypass filters, it could take out 75% of the BN.

I read the paper (did you?) and the only application is for solid lubrication of steel mill mechanisms, etc. Look at Table 5 and tell me if you see any particle size less than 3 um.

I can do the same thing with Schaeffer's 286C, but I would not want to use it in an engine.

I do see application in solid bearings as in ceramic bearings and other applications where a solid lubricant is needed. And it also appears to be a replacement solid lubricant for current graphite applications, and of course cosmetics.

So show me an SAE or STLE paper with tribochemisrty data and that shows some advantage for this product and I will take a look.

BTW, you asked for opinions and now you have them. You didn't say anything about being argumentative about this subject.

 

[John K]

Interesting. In the paper cited I notice that graphite, at least in some of the tests, was pretty close to the BN, but of course BN isn't black. I went to the buy link and it is under construction, so don't know the cost. I am opposed to additives in general, and since we get so many miles out of engines now, 200,000 miles is almost routine with proper care, don't see where it could possibly be cost effective. The one good thing about this product is it is not in a straight 30 weight carrier oil like so many others. I would expect high cost with very little potential advantages....cynic that I am.

 

[kilou]

If you wants to be argumentative, please do

All the papers I linked in this topic are related to h-BN in general and NOT to Zenox in particular. On Zenox website, it's stated that h-BN particles sizes is lower than 0.24 microns so actually 0.24 microns would be the max size! With a max size of 0.24 microns, there shouldn't be any risk to clog the filter.

Now that I have your opinion, what could be good is if you tell me what point should be clarified, what point causes potential problem. Unfortunately I cannot provide any SAE or STLE review since I don't know if it exist any and even if they would exist. I wouldn't have access to it. Would this be the only point to go further in the topic or should we try to get some more information on the product? For now I really don't care about the benefits of this additive, I only care about its drawbacks and potential harm it can cause to the engine.

 

[LarryL]

It appears that companies like Honda and Ford are pushing the lubrication envelope, already. They even want you to use a 5w-20 oil in some vehicles. Maybe we should send them this link, because after all, the CAFE ratings are getting tougher all the time. Manufactures have proven that they will try a CAFE fix in a bottle of oil, so why has this little trick been missed....or has it? I'm not sure any additive is even close to a good bet. After all we're talking about a car or truck that we drive around. It's just tough to figure any payback, and if there's a risk on top of that, then it's not bet at all.

 

[rg144]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kilou:
For now I really don't care about the benefits of this additive, I only care about its drawbacks and potential harm it can cause to the engine.

---

If you don't use it, then there is no possibility of harm.

Why be the Guinea Pig? IMHO, why use an additive that increases the cost per quart of the oil change? You're increasing the cost per quart by $9USD. You could change your oil twice as often knowing you additives are back to maximum, safe, tested values.

 

[416Rigby]

There is a product called Luboron, www.luboron.com , that sounds similar. I haven't tried it, so I don't know if any of the claims are true or not.

 

[Gary Allan]

I recall (actually not - I can't remember the name) some ceramic additive primarily tagetted for the motorcycle crowd. It too was in Europe. I doubt that any SAE papers would be available on it. The posts that I recall all had links to Europe.

You would think that the Euros escape most of the snake oil craze that we Americans fall for.

one two

and one ..oddly enough, kilou, by you a while back. Just put ceramic in the search.


You don't happen to work for the company that provides the precursors for all these ceramic additives, do you??

(bloodhound- sniff ..sniff

)

 

[MolaKule]

Regarding particle size, I think you missed the point.

All these manufacturers state the smallest particle size but in parenthesis, they give the average particle size, and it's always larger than the smallest particle size. So what is being stated, if you read the literature closley, is a statement about the statistical distribution of particle sizes. Theoretically, I could state a 0.0001 um particle size as the smallest particle, since I am sure I could find a BN particle that small with a scanning electron microscope. All additve makers give particle size distributions for their colloidal suspensions, whether it be calcium, boron, or whatever.

You wanted potential problem areas:

1. What happens to these particles in suspension? How do they interact with other additives? Can we say for sure they won't act antagonistically to other additives? No data is given in any of the literature that I can find. There are tons of data on moly, ZDDP, calcium, boron, etc., interactions but not for BN.

2. No theory is given as to whether they turn plastic or are attracted electrostatically or can bond to metal surfaces. The inference is they form flakes and cause a sliding surface as in an avalance, but only in the solid state. How do they react in oils?

3. Most additive suppliers give loads data, wear scars, friction coefficients, etc for their fluids. No data is given by any of these BN manufacturers for fluids or colloidal suspensions.

I wouldn't hestiate to formulate a gear lube or grease using this material, assuming the material works as planned, but in an expensive engine where this is unproven, no thanks.

And what is the payback and advantage to using a more expensive powder when two or three cheaper powders would work just as well?

Putting fancy sounding stuff in for technology's sake alone is not good business.

Don't be impressed by all the hoaky, glitzy literature and claims made, especially the testimonials. Testimonials are way too subjective to have any merit.

 

[kilou]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:

You don't happen to work for the company that provides the precursors for all these ceramic additives, do you??

(bloodhound- sniff ..sniff

)

---

I have started several threads about additives in general and ceramics in particular. I hope that asking question does not mean to you that one is selling a product because I fear that this forum would be an online supermarket

No I have no affiliation with any oil or additive company. I'm just trying to understand why some kind of additive can be good or bad for either engine or gearbox application because if I don't trust the advertisment made by additive manufacturers, I also don't believe that saying all additive are crap is an objective view. Most are but as always the is no general rule.........or life would be too easy.

Most engine wear occurs at cold startup and in this area, even a 0W oil is not perfect and maybe some aftermarket additive, especially solid lubricants that "cling" to cylinder walls may be beneficial. I don't know and this is why I ask questions.