True story about a year ago. 65 yr old guy is out riding his bike and gets into a road rage with a guy in the pickup. It escalates and the rider pulls his Glock 45 and starts shooting at the truck, just missing the driver and putting several holes in his truck. They ended up in a parking lot where the truck tried to run him over. They were arrested and the biker was charged. This is in Ohio and the biker goes to court and the judge throws it out because he doesn't see any evidence of wrong doing. BTW, the biker was a former OSU football star.
Woman intentionally runs over & kills motorcyclist
- Thread starter LoneRanger
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Maybe I make a good call...maybe I don't...but if I don't, then you lose...you lose far more than me because I have a considerable tactical advantage...
But the point is this: you forced me to respond...why press the issue? Why not use another method to get my attention? If you really want my response, you might not like the form it takes!
Just because somebody "makes you respond" does NOT relieve you from facing the consequences of your response ... be it right or totally wrong (as this woman's).
You will not be excused because "somebody made me respond" and I just couldn't "help it" how I reacted to the situation. That is NOT taking responsibility for your actions. The laws ensures this.
I have not excused this woman.
She clearly chased the motorcyclist down, thus taking action after the threat ended. That's a crime.
However, if you persist in assaulting cars, and their drivers, by kicking them or slapping their windows, you may find yourself provoking a threat response that ends you.
And you will have elicited that response, making it your responsibility.
Understanding what constitutes a threat, and how a person might react, is important to understand.
Put simply: behaving like a tool on your bike might get you killed.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Maybe I make a good call...maybe I don't...but if I don't, then you lose...you lose far more than me because I have a considerable tactical advantage...
But the point is this: you forced me to respond...why press the issue? Why not use another method to get my attention? If you really want my response, you might not like the form it takes!
Just because somebody "makes you respond" does NOT relieve you from facing the consequences of your response ... be it right or totally wrong (as this woman's).
You will not be excused because "somebody made me respond" and I just couldn't "help it" how I reacted to the situation. That is NOT taking responsibility for your actions. The laws ensures this.
I have not excused this woman.
She clearly chased the motorcyclist down, thus taking action after the threat ended. That's a crime.
However, if you persist in assaulting cars, and their drivers, by kicking them or slapping their windows, you may find yourself provoking a threat response that ends you.
And you will have elicited that response, making it your responsibility.
Understanding what constitutes a threat, and how a person might react, is important to understand.
Put simply: behaving like a tool on your bike might get you killed.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
You'll ruin your life and be sitting in jail due to an idiotic move like just like this woman will experience. She's probably sitting in jail right now thinking how utterly stupid she was. No going back now!
Now IF he pulled a gun out and started shooting, then by all means run him over if you can't get away. You just can't kill somebody because you think he might do something more than touch your car ... that's an idiotic mentality.
I would not, nor am I required to, wait until someone starts shooting in order to defend myself.
If you present a threat, then proportional force is legitimate in defense against that threat.
I don't know exactly what your intentions are when you slap my window. The threat is presented when a person has the ability (you've got that), the opportunity (you've got that too, you're close enough to slap my car), and the intent (what's the intent behind the provocative action?).
So, you're betting your life that I will interpret your intent (to get my attention) as you perceive it...but I might not...I might find that your slapping of the window is escalatory, that you mean to do me harm...and in that interpretation, my self-defense is reasonable.
And since we're talking about me here, the response would be swift and deliberate. I wouldn't chase you down, because you would no longer have the opportunity, and so the threat would be over.
I also wouldn't give you much time to continue to threaten me...so, your best bet is to leave me alone, or leave me in your dust, which is easily done on a motorcycle...
But to bet your life on my interpretation of your aggressive action?
That's foolish...
You would be far better served to use your horn, or avoid my blind spot, or any of a number of defensive riding measures before taking provocative action...again, provoking people is not a good way to life a long, and uninjured, life...
That post is the best argument I have ever seen for mandatory confiscation of all firearms and mandatory death penalty for not turning them in.
What a fascinating distortion of what I said to promote your obvious political agenda.
You'll note, in a careful re-reading (for comprehension this time, please) of my posts in this thread, that I said: I would NOT use the firearm to defend myself.
I was quite clear that I would use the most available, most immediate, and most effective, weapon: the vehicle.
Your failure to grasp that simple point is predictable, if disappointing...but then, you were only interested in scoring political points on this thread...right?
So let me make this point: lethality doesn't come from the weapon, but from the intent, and ability, of the person in question.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
You'll ruin your life and be sitting in jail due to an idiotic move like just like this woman will experience. She's probably sitting in jail right now thinking how utterly stupid she was. No going back now!
Now IF he pulled a gun out and started shooting, then by all means run him over if you can't get away. You just can't kill somebody because you think he might do something more than touch your car ... that's an idiotic mentality.
I would not, nor am I required to, wait until someone starts shooting in order to defend myself.
If you present a threat, then proportional force is legitimate in defense against that threat.
I don't know exactly what your intentions are when you slap my window. The threat is presented when a person has the ability (you've got that), the opportunity (you've got that too, you're close enough to slap my car), and the intent (what's the intent behind the provocative action?).
So, you're betting your life that I will interpret your intent (to get my attention) as you perceive it...but I might not...I might find that your slapping of the window is escalatory, that you mean to do me harm...and in that interpretation, my self-defense is reasonable.
And since we're talking about me here, the response would be swift and deliberate. I wouldn't chase you down, because you would no longer have the opportunity, and so the threat would be over.
I also wouldn't give you much time to continue to threaten me...so, your best bet is to leave me alone, or leave me in your dust, which is easily done on a motorcycle...
But to bet your life on my interpretation of your aggressive action?
That's foolish...
You would be far better served to use your horn, or avoid my blind spot, or any of a number of defensive riding measures before taking provocative action...again, provoking people is not a good way to life a long, and uninjured, life...
That post is the best argument I have ever seen for mandatory confiscation of all firearms and mandatory death penalty for not turning them in.
What a fascinating distortion of what I said to promote your obvious political agenda.
You'll note, in a careful re-reading (for comprehension this time, please) of my posts in this thread, that I said: I would NOT use the firearm to defend myself.
I was quite clear that I would use the most available, most immediate, and most effective, weapon: the vehicle.
Your failure to grasp that simple point is predictable, if disappointing...but then, you were only interested in scoring political points on this thread...right?
So let me make this point: lethality doesn't come from the weapon, but from the intent, and ability, of the person in question.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I wouldn't recommend anyone slapping a car being macho about a lane, someone inside may very well have a gun and a short temper
Sometimes, you have to do whatever works, to get the attention of brain dead drivers. Given a choice between being crushed by a vehicle changing lanes over me, or slapping the car window......Well, I am writing this, so I will just say, slapping a window can be preferable.
If you think it is better to stay quiet, and wind up under a couple of tons of badly driven iron......Well, we all make choices.
So, you're saying that you would slap my window to get my attention?!?
Slapping a window is aggressive, provocative behavior...
You should realize that making physical contact is assault...further, you just might trip my threat triangle: ability, opportunity, intent.
Recalling the guy who was chased down, dragged out of his car and beaten by a group of motorcycle riders in New York last year...I am compelled to take intentional physical contact with my car as intent to harm me. And if a rider caused me to believe that he intended me harm, I am perfectly, completely justified in using lethal force to end that threat.
And despite my extensive training in close range shooting with a pistol, I would chose the immediate, more effective 4,000 lb weapon with which to defend myself from your assault...you are not likely to survive if I think you're a threat.
Use your horn if you want my attention. That's what it's there for.
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
I wouldn't recommend anyone slapping a car being macho about a lane, someone inside may very well have a gun and a short temper
Sometimes, you have to do whatever works, to get the attention of brain dead drivers. Given a choice between being crushed by a vehicle changing lanes over me, or slapping the car window......Well, I am writing this, so I will just say, slapping a window can be preferable.
If you think it is better to stay quiet, and wind up under a couple of tons of badly driven iron......Well, we all make choices.
So, you're saying that you would slap my window to get my attention?!?
Slapping a window is aggressive, provocative behavior...
You should realize that making physical contact is assault...further, you just might trip my threat triangle: ability, opportunity, intent.
Recalling the guy who was chased down, dragged out of his car and beaten by a group of motorcycle riders in New York last year...I am compelled to take intentional physical contact with my car as intent to harm me. And if a rider caused me to believe that he intended me harm, I am perfectly, completely justified in using lethal force to end that threat.
And despite my extensive training in close range shooting with a pistol, I would chose the immediate, more effective 4,000 lb weapon with which to defend myself from your assault...you are not likely to survive if I think you're a threat.
Use your horn if you want my attention. That's what it's there for.
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
That post is the best argument I have ever seen for mandatory confiscation of all firearms and mandatory death penalty for not turning them in.
Your approach (the Nazi German approach) is just WONDERFUL. What a utopia it would be. Say what you want, but because of guns is the reason you live in a reasonably free society, free from the threat of invasion and subjugation by foreign forces.
Actually, I'm an NRA life member and have sent close to $1000 to them this year. Murder fantasies do not help the cause.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
That post is the best argument I have ever seen for mandatory confiscation of all firearms and mandatory death penalty for not turning them in.
Your approach (the Nazi German approach) is just WONDERFUL. What a utopia it would be. Say what you want, but because of guns is the reason you live in a reasonably free society, free from the threat of invasion and subjugation by foreign forces.
Actually, I'm an NRA life member and have sent close to $1000 to them this year. Murder fantasies do not help the cause.
I'm driving home from dinner tonight in the middle lane of a 3 lane road and a motorcycle zooms up behind me and swerves in front of me. I'm doing about 65 and he was doing about 120. He proceeds to have a little chit chat with the lifted truck in the left lane. The motorcycle is doing some sort of a slalom about 45mph during the chit chat. I flash my lights to get this guy to get moving. Pull over if you want to chat. The motorcycle goes even slower, [censored] me off. I was afraid he was going to brake check me. Finally I beep at him and he zooms off at about 120 again but I catch up to him at the next light. A Yamaha bike. Is it just me or do the Harley guys rarely seem to cause much drama on the road. They stay in their lane and avoid trouble. The sports bike folk seem to speed and weave and cause chaos.
I see the "Watch for motorcycles" public service announcements and then I see motorcycles that seem to have a death wish and just shake my head.
I see the "Watch for motorcycles" public service announcements and then I see motorcycles that seem to have a death wish and just shake my head.
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 5,294
CHP charged Murder which would indicate they had facts and evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe (i.e. Probable Cause) that her actions went beyond heat of the moment manslaughter.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Is it just me or do the Harley guys rarely seem to cause much drama on the road. They stay in their lane and avoid trouble. The sports bike folk seem to speed and weave and cause chaos.
So I went for a ride today. I rode over a twisty mountain road. Coming the other way was a group of Harley riders. Most of them were over the centerline, in my lane, on a blind curve. It's a good thing I know how to ride, and avoided those incompetent morons.
I then found myself on a four-lane divided highway for about 5 miles, to get to the next twisty road. Who do I come up on, but a Motorcycle Gang (oops, they prefer 'Club') displaying their rugged, lone-wolf individualism, by all dressing alike, riding 15 mph under the speed limit, and wearing their 1%er patches. They really showed all the traffic that tried to pass what big, brave, and tough men they were, by pulling out and blocking the left lane when anyone tried to pass their mentally challenged procession. Fortunately, my exit came up, and I didn't have to deal with them.
So, the biggest tools I saw today on bikes, were all on Harley's.
The bottom line?, there are idiots in or on every type of vehicle made.
Is it just me or do the Harley guys rarely seem to cause much drama on the road. They stay in their lane and avoid trouble. The sports bike folk seem to speed and weave and cause chaos.
So I went for a ride today. I rode over a twisty mountain road. Coming the other way was a group of Harley riders. Most of them were over the centerline, in my lane, on a blind curve. It's a good thing I know how to ride, and avoided those incompetent morons.
I then found myself on a four-lane divided highway for about 5 miles, to get to the next twisty road. Who do I come up on, but a Motorcycle Gang (oops, they prefer 'Club') displaying their rugged, lone-wolf individualism, by all dressing alike, riding 15 mph under the speed limit, and wearing their 1%er patches. They really showed all the traffic that tried to pass what big, brave, and tough men they were, by pulling out and blocking the left lane when anyone tried to pass their mentally challenged procession. Fortunately, my exit came up, and I didn't have to deal with them.
So, the biggest tools I saw today on bikes, were all on Harley's.
The bottom line?, there are idiots in or on every type of vehicle made.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
Ah ...no.... horns work perfectly well on oblivious people as well, they are loud.
If you slap or hit my window or car I am going to call
911 and report you as a threat on the road. I'd eagerly press charges too, hopefully I'd be lucky enough to get it on video.
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
Ah ...no.... horns work perfectly well on oblivious people as well, they are loud.
If you slap or hit my window or car I am going to call
911 and report you as a threat on the road. I'd eagerly press charges too, hopefully I'd be lucky enough to get it on video.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Astro14
So let me make this point: lethality doesn't come from the weapon, but from the intent, and ability, of the person in question.
Yes, just like the woman behind the wheel ... really no different than a person using a gun, as both are lethal weapons when used with intent to harm or kill.
So let me make this point: lethality doesn't come from the weapon, but from the intent, and ability, of the person in question.
Yes, just like the woman behind the wheel ... really no different than a person using a gun, as both are lethal weapons when used with intent to harm or kill.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Chasing someone down and killing them is not defensive. It has turned offensive. You make a choice to either attack or turn the other direction. If the person has moved on and is not a direct threat to you and then you chase and kill them that is your fault.
Can she get the death penalty?
Exactly. Can she get the death penalty? I doubt it. But a few of us would like to see her fry.
Chasing someone down and killing them is not defensive. It has turned offensive. You make a choice to either attack or turn the other direction. If the person has moved on and is not a direct threat to you and then you chase and kill them that is your fault.
Can she get the death penalty?
Exactly. Can she get the death penalty? I doubt it. But a few of us would like to see her fry.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
My perspective is just fine, thanks. I'm trying to balance the discussion by pointing out how a motorcyclist's actions could be interpreted, to the detriment of the rider...
Unlike much of the keyboard courage, and testosterone, shown in this thread, my perspective comes from decades of actual split second, life and death decisions in a far more demanding environment than traffic. I'm very familiar with rules on the use of force, with decision making, with thinking quickly. I'm the guy you want next to you...because I will react quickly and appropriately.
In traffic, the real me is a pretty mellow driver, hanging in the right lane, going a bit over the speed limit, using my mirrors and signals, letting people merge in front of me, and watching for motorcycles, pedestrians, and animals. It's called "SA" in my day job...and I practice it. The hypothetical threat response, however, is also real, and should be considered by a prudent rider.
You may not be so lucky as to have the real me next to you...
I am struggling to understand how you could ride, quickly respond to my lane change and still be able to slap my window. Seems to me the situation would have to be pretty stable for you to be able to ride that closely that you can slap my window, or kick my car. If I were coming over quickly into your lane, there wouldn't be time to make contact with your hand before the vehicles collided. So, again, the window slapping is provocative, not defensive.
Finally, since you made this personal, to which of my "manhood replacement" are you referring? My 13 year old Volvo wagon? Hardly a manhood replacement...not exactly a big 4WD. But, since my self worth isn't derived from what I drive, I'm perfectly comfortable in the geeky Volvo...or the 25 year old truck, despite your specious assertion to the contrary. Perhaps you should focus on the merits of my position, instead of attempting to find fault with me personally.
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
My perspective is just fine, thanks. I'm trying to balance the discussion by pointing out how a motorcyclist's actions could be interpreted, to the detriment of the rider...
Unlike much of the keyboard courage, and testosterone, shown in this thread, my perspective comes from decades of actual split second, life and death decisions in a far more demanding environment than traffic. I'm very familiar with rules on the use of force, with decision making, with thinking quickly. I'm the guy you want next to you...because I will react quickly and appropriately.
In traffic, the real me is a pretty mellow driver, hanging in the right lane, going a bit over the speed limit, using my mirrors and signals, letting people merge in front of me, and watching for motorcycles, pedestrians, and animals. It's called "SA" in my day job...and I practice it. The hypothetical threat response, however, is also real, and should be considered by a prudent rider.
You may not be so lucky as to have the real me next to you...
I am struggling to understand how you could ride, quickly respond to my lane change and still be able to slap my window. Seems to me the situation would have to be pretty stable for you to be able to ride that closely that you can slap my window, or kick my car. If I were coming over quickly into your lane, there wouldn't be time to make contact with your hand before the vehicles collided. So, again, the window slapping is provocative, not defensive.
Finally, since you made this personal, to which of my "manhood replacement" are you referring? My 13 year old Volvo wagon? Hardly a manhood replacement...not exactly a big 4WD. But, since my self worth isn't derived from what I drive, I'm perfectly comfortable in the geeky Volvo...or the 25 year old truck, despite your specious assertion to the contrary. Perhaps you should focus on the merits of my position, instead of attempting to find fault with me personally.
Last edited:
There may be no victim here, or no innocent party either. We were not there, so many details that escalated this are not known, we can only get versions of what happened from the car driver and witnesses. The witnesses probably remember what happened as it was already escalating. But do they know what initially may have started this?
Both the cyclist and the driver may be equal contributors to this unfortunate outcome.
I can say from riding a motorcycle, there is never a situation where i have been in a position to slap another car. I don't ever want to be close enough to do that. Even if another driver makes a mistake or even if i perceive it to be intentional, i brake get as much distance from them as possible and get out of a direct line, i.e. i want to be behind them, in another lane, preferably the right lane. That way i can duck and stop quickly on the shoulder and let them go, or make an exit from the highway.
There probably are contributory actions on both parties in this situation, but none of us were there.
Both the cyclist and the driver may be equal contributors to this unfortunate outcome.
I can say from riding a motorcycle, there is never a situation where i have been in a position to slap another car. I don't ever want to be close enough to do that. Even if another driver makes a mistake or even if i perceive it to be intentional, i brake get as much distance from them as possible and get out of a direct line, i.e. i want to be behind them, in another lane, preferably the right lane. That way i can duck and stop quickly on the shoulder and let them go, or make an exit from the highway.
There probably are contributory actions on both parties in this situation, but none of us were there.
Last edited:
I don't think slap was in the original article, but it's become a fact.
So I'll throw in another...the Ducati could clearly outrun her, so had to position himself to get rammed...check brake ?
Have seen a couple of times, a rider come up on the inside where they shouldn't be, at twice the speed limit, and get shirty with a driver changing lanes into them (saw one old guy check over shoulder, and not expecting an idjit at posted limitx2 change lanes into said idlit...said idjit tried for a door kick)...one of the idjits once decided to run in front, and do a brake check (on a guy who he was cranky with for being inattentive ???)
So I'll throw in another...the Ducati could clearly outrun her, so had to position himself to get rammed...check brake ?
Have seen a couple of times, a rider come up on the inside where they shouldn't be, at twice the speed limit, and get shirty with a driver changing lanes into them (saw one old guy check over shoulder, and not expecting an idjit at posted limitx2 change lanes into said idlit...said idjit tried for a door kick)...one of the idjits once decided to run in front, and do a brake check (on a guy who he was cranky with for being inattentive ???)
Originally Posted By: spasm3
There may be no victim here, or no innocent party either. We were not there, so many details that escalated this are not known, we can only get versions of what happened from the car driver and witnesses. The witnesses probably remember what happened as it was already escalating. But do they know what initially may have started this?
Both the cyclist and the driver may be equal contributors to this unfortunate outcome.
I can say from riding a motorcycle, there is never a situation where i have been in a position to slap another car. I don't ever want to be close enough to do that. Even if another driver makes a mistake or even if i perceive it to be intentional, i brake get as much distance from them as possible and get out of a direct line, i.e. i want to be behind them, in another lane, preferably the right lane. That way i can duck and stop quickly on the shoulder and let them go, or make an exit from the highway.
There probably are contributory actions on both parties in this situation, but none of us were there.
You can state "none of us were there" until the cows come home, but there is a person dead there. That will never change no matter how many spins you try to put on it. One person made a decision to strike another's vehical from the rear. Then make the effort to run over them, causing injuries that they died from. She could have called the Police and reported his plate number because she was behind him, but chose to inflict physical damage and harm. She might have been able to say her brakes failed if she just hit him, but she went the extra mile and finished the job. To me that's no different then if she had shot him twice. Dead is dead.,,,
There may be no victim here, or no innocent party either. We were not there, so many details that escalated this are not known, we can only get versions of what happened from the car driver and witnesses. The witnesses probably remember what happened as it was already escalating. But do they know what initially may have started this?
Both the cyclist and the driver may be equal contributors to this unfortunate outcome.
I can say from riding a motorcycle, there is never a situation where i have been in a position to slap another car. I don't ever want to be close enough to do that. Even if another driver makes a mistake or even if i perceive it to be intentional, i brake get as much distance from them as possible and get out of a direct line, i.e. i want to be behind them, in another lane, preferably the right lane. That way i can duck and stop quickly on the shoulder and let them go, or make an exit from the highway.
There probably are contributory actions on both parties in this situation, but none of us were there.
You can state "none of us were there" until the cows come home, but there is a person dead there. That will never change no matter how many spins you try to put on it. One person made a decision to strike another's vehical from the rear. Then make the effort to run over them, causing injuries that they died from. She could have called the Police and reported his plate number because she was behind him, but chose to inflict physical damage and harm. She might have been able to say her brakes failed if she just hit him, but she went the extra mile and finished the job. To me that's no different then if she had shot him twice. Dead is dead.,,,
The original article claimed that the rider kicked the car.
Whatever transgression the rider perceived on the part of the driver, kicking the car is aggressive, provocative, and quite honestly, unwarranted.
It's not a warning at that point, there's no justification for kicking the car...it's retribution...and it escalates the situation.
Sure. The driver escalated too...I'll wager that she was seeking retribution after her car was kicked. What she did was cause someone's death using her vehicle as a weapon after there was no longer threat. That's a crime. The extent of that crime will depend on the evidence in the case and the determination of her intent.
But escalating, provoking others, when you're on a motorcycle is foolish. If it gets ugly, you lose...every time...
Whatever transgression the rider perceived on the part of the driver, kicking the car is aggressive, provocative, and quite honestly, unwarranted.
It's not a warning at that point, there's no justification for kicking the car...it's retribution...and it escalates the situation.
Sure. The driver escalated too...I'll wager that she was seeking retribution after her car was kicked. What she did was cause someone's death using her vehicle as a weapon after there was no longer threat. That's a crime. The extent of that crime will depend on the evidence in the case and the determination of her intent.
But escalating, provoking others, when you're on a motorcycle is foolish. If it gets ugly, you lose...every time...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 5,294
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
You can state "none of us were there" until the cows come home, but there is a person dead there. That will never change no matter how many spins you try to put on it. One person made a decision to strike another's vehical from the rear. Then make the effort to run over them, causing injuries that they died from. She could have called the Police and reported his plate number because she was behind him, but chose to inflict physical damage and harm. She might have been able to say her brakes failed if she just hit him, but she went the extra mile and finished the job. To me that's no different then if she had shot him twice. Dead is dead.,,,
Best most logical and to-the-point post so far. Props to Cahuna.
You can state "none of us were there" until the cows come home, but there is a person dead there. That will never change no matter how many spins you try to put on it. One person made a decision to strike another's vehical from the rear. Then make the effort to run over them, causing injuries that they died from. She could have called the Police and reported his plate number because she was behind him, but chose to inflict physical damage and harm. She might have been able to say her brakes failed if she just hit him, but she went the extra mile and finished the job. To me that's no different then if she had shot him twice. Dead is dead.,,,
Best most logical and to-the-point post so far. Props to Cahuna.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
My perspective is just fine, thanks. I'm trying to balance the discussion by pointing out how a motorcyclist's actions could be interpreted, to the detriment of the rider...
Unlike much of the keyboard courage, and testosterone, shown in this thread, my perspective comes from decades of actual split second, life and death decisions in a far more demanding environment than traffic. I'm very familiar with rules on the use of force, with decision making, with thinking quickly. I'm the guy you want next to you...because I will react quickly and appropriately.
In traffic, the real me is a pretty mellow driver, hanging in the right lane, going a bit over the speed limit, using my mirrors and signals, letting people merge in front of me, and watching for motorcycles, pedestrians, and animals. It's called "SA" in my day job...and I practice it. The hypothetical threat response, however, is also real, and should be considered by a prudent rider.
You may not be so lucky as to have the real me next to you...
I am struggling to understand how you could ride, quickly respond to my lane change and still be able to slap my window. Seems to me the situation would have to be pretty stable for you to be able to ride that closely that you can slap my window, or kick my car. If I were coming over quickly into your lane, there wouldn't be time to make contact with your hand before the vehicles collided. So, again, the window slapping is provocative, not defensive.
Finally, since you made this personal, to which of my "manhood replacement" are you referring? My 13 year old Volvo wagon? Hardly a manhood replacement...not exactly a big 4WD. But, since my self worth isn't derived from what I drive, I'm perfectly comfortable in the geeky Volvo...or the 25 year old truck, despite your specious assertion to the contrary. Perhaps you should focus on the merits of my position, instead of attempting to find fault with me personally.
So.......How do you react to a knock on your front door? And how is that situation appreciably different than a slap (Or knock) on your driver's window? You see threats everywhere. It makes you come across as an overly aggressive, violent incident looking for a place to happen. How many people have you shot......Or are you just an internet blow hard?
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
My perspective is just fine, thanks. I'm trying to balance the discussion by pointing out how a motorcyclist's actions could be interpreted, to the detriment of the rider...
Unlike much of the keyboard courage, and testosterone, shown in this thread, my perspective comes from decades of actual split second, life and death decisions in a far more demanding environment than traffic. I'm very familiar with rules on the use of force, with decision making, with thinking quickly. I'm the guy you want next to you...because I will react quickly and appropriately.
In traffic, the real me is a pretty mellow driver, hanging in the right lane, going a bit over the speed limit, using my mirrors and signals, letting people merge in front of me, and watching for motorcycles, pedestrians, and animals. It's called "SA" in my day job...and I practice it. The hypothetical threat response, however, is also real, and should be considered by a prudent rider.
You may not be so lucky as to have the real me next to you...
I am struggling to understand how you could ride, quickly respond to my lane change and still be able to slap my window. Seems to me the situation would have to be pretty stable for you to be able to ride that closely that you can slap my window, or kick my car. If I were coming over quickly into your lane, there wouldn't be time to make contact with your hand before the vehicles collided. So, again, the window slapping is provocative, not defensive.
Finally, since you made this personal, to which of my "manhood replacement" are you referring? My 13 year old Volvo wagon? Hardly a manhood replacement...not exactly a big 4WD. But, since my self worth isn't derived from what I drive, I'm perfectly comfortable in the geeky Volvo...or the 25 year old truck, despite your specious assertion to the contrary. Perhaps you should focus on the merits of my position, instead of attempting to find fault with me personally.
So.......How do you react to a knock on your front door? And how is that situation appreciably different than a slap (Or knock) on your driver's window? You see threats everywhere. It makes you come across as an overly aggressive, violent incident looking for a place to happen. How many people have you shot......Or are you just an internet blow hard?
CycleCruza just released a video that is related to this conversation.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
My perspective is just fine, thanks. I'm trying to balance the discussion by pointing out how a motorcyclist's actions could be interpreted, to the detriment of the rider...
Unlike much of the keyboard courage, and testosterone, shown in this thread, my perspective comes from decades of actual split second, life and death decisions in a far more demanding environment than traffic. I'm very familiar with rules on the use of force, with decision making, with thinking quickly. I'm the guy you want next to you...because I will react quickly and appropriately.
In traffic, the real me is a pretty mellow driver, hanging in the right lane, going a bit over the speed limit, using my mirrors and signals, letting people merge in front of me, and watching for motorcycles, pedestrians, and animals. It's called "SA" in my day job...and I practice it. The hypothetical threat response, however, is also real, and should be considered by a prudent rider.
You may not be so lucky as to have the real me next to you...
I am struggling to understand how you could ride, quickly respond to my lane change and still be able to slap my window. Seems to me the situation would have to be pretty stable for you to be able to ride that closely that you can slap my window, or kick my car. If I were coming over quickly into your lane, there wouldn't be time to make contact with your hand before the vehicles collided. So, again, the window slapping is provocative, not defensive.
Finally, since you made this personal, to which of my "manhood replacement" are you referring? My 13 year old Volvo wagon? Hardly a manhood replacement...not exactly a big 4WD. But, since my self worth isn't derived from what I drive, I'm perfectly comfortable in the geeky Volvo...or the 25 year old truck, despite your specious assertion to the contrary. Perhaps you should focus on the merits of my position, instead of attempting to find fault with me personally.
So.......How do you react to a knock on your front door? And how is that situation appreciably different than a slap (Or knock) on your driver's window? You see threats everywhere. It makes you come across as an overly aggressive, violent incident looking for a place to happen. How many people have you shot......Or are you just an internet blow hard?
Also.....If you interpret a person on a motorcycle knocking on your window as a deadly threat.....You really do not have reasonable judgement, and should not be driving.....At all.
You asked how I could have time to slap a window, when a vehicle is obliviously coming into my lane.....It has happened in heavy traffic, at low speeds. In every case, the driver immediately realized their mistake, was apologetic, and withdrew back into their previous lane. They were not like you, and inclined to compound the error by killing someone.
The problem with horns (From 47 years of riding experience) is that the driver has no idea what direction the noise is coming from. A rap on the glass is hard to misinterpret.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
If you were in the process of driving your vehicle into me, and I had no other escape, then yes, I would definitely slap your window. Horns only work on people that are paying attention. You seem to be a threat on the road. I carry, as well. If I slap your window, you have already attempted to assault me with your oversized manhood replacement. So.....My slapping your window would be self defense. Perspective.....See if you can buy some.
My perspective is just fine, thanks. I'm trying to balance the discussion by pointing out how a motorcyclist's actions could be interpreted, to the detriment of the rider...
Unlike much of the keyboard courage, and testosterone, shown in this thread, my perspective comes from decades of actual split second, life and death decisions in a far more demanding environment than traffic. I'm very familiar with rules on the use of force, with decision making, with thinking quickly. I'm the guy you want next to you...because I will react quickly and appropriately.
In traffic, the real me is a pretty mellow driver, hanging in the right lane, going a bit over the speed limit, using my mirrors and signals, letting people merge in front of me, and watching for motorcycles, pedestrians, and animals. It's called "SA" in my day job...and I practice it. The hypothetical threat response, however, is also real, and should be considered by a prudent rider.
You may not be so lucky as to have the real me next to you...
I am struggling to understand how you could ride, quickly respond to my lane change and still be able to slap my window. Seems to me the situation would have to be pretty stable for you to be able to ride that closely that you can slap my window, or kick my car. If I were coming over quickly into your lane, there wouldn't be time to make contact with your hand before the vehicles collided. So, again, the window slapping is provocative, not defensive.
Finally, since you made this personal, to which of my "manhood replacement" are you referring? My 13 year old Volvo wagon? Hardly a manhood replacement...not exactly a big 4WD. But, since my self worth isn't derived from what I drive, I'm perfectly comfortable in the geeky Volvo...or the 25 year old truck, despite your specious assertion to the contrary. Perhaps you should focus on the merits of my position, instead of attempting to find fault with me personally.
So.......How do you react to a knock on your front door? And how is that situation appreciably different than a slap (Or knock) on your driver's window? You see threats everywhere. It makes you come across as an overly aggressive, violent incident looking for a place to happen. How many people have you shot......Or are you just an internet blow hard?
Also.....If you interpret a person on a motorcycle knocking on your window as a deadly threat.....You really do not have reasonable judgement, and should not be driving.....At all.
You asked how I could have time to slap a window, when a vehicle is obliviously coming into my lane.....It has happened in heavy traffic, at low speeds. In every case, the driver immediately realized their mistake, was apologetic, and withdrew back into their previous lane. They were not like you, and inclined to compound the error by killing someone.
The problem with horns (From 47 years of riding experience) is that the driver has no idea what direction the noise is coming from. A rap on the glass is hard to misinterpret.
- Status
