Woman intentionally runs over & kills motorcyclist
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Originally Posted By: Smoky14
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
He made the CHOICE to ride a motorcycle. He was road raging with a person in a VEHICLE.
He was responsible for his death. If they had separated after the incident, that would have been the best.
Everyone knows you are less protected riding a motorcycle vs a automobile.
That is like if I flew over to ISIS unarmed and tell a militant officer armed with machetes and guns how awesome the U.S. is, then we get in a fight, what do you think would happen once escalated? Would you all be boo hooing for me if I got killed?
I knew the dangers, but took the risk, motorcyclist know the dangers, and take the risk. You want to road rage with machines that can kill you, go for it.
Good post.
Isn't that like saying; you chose to drive a car instead of a semi therefore it's your fault and the irritated semi driver shouldn't be held accountable because you drove an econobox. If you, with intent, drive into someone and kill them it's murder regardless of what they drive.
Smoky
I always keep the rule of lug nuts in mind......In the case of contact between vehicles, he who has the most lug nuts......Wins! Forget that at your own peril, whether you are on a scooter or in a pickup.
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
He made the CHOICE to ride a motorcycle. He was road raging with a person in a VEHICLE.
He was responsible for his death. If they had separated after the incident, that would have been the best.
Everyone knows you are less protected riding a motorcycle vs a automobile.
That is like if I flew over to ISIS unarmed and tell a militant officer armed with machetes and guns how awesome the U.S. is, then we get in a fight, what do you think would happen once escalated? Would you all be boo hooing for me if I got killed?
I knew the dangers, but took the risk, motorcyclist know the dangers, and take the risk. You want to road rage with machines that can kill you, go for it.
Good post.
Isn't that like saying; you chose to drive a car instead of a semi therefore it's your fault and the irritated semi driver shouldn't be held accountable because you drove an econobox. If you, with intent, drive into someone and kill them it's murder regardless of what they drive.
Smoky
I always keep the rule of lug nuts in mind......In the case of contact between vehicles, he who has the most lug nuts......Wins! Forget that at your own peril, whether you are on a scooter or in a pickup.
Also a pretty good likelihood there are witnesses and
probably traffic cameras that captured some of this as well.
probably traffic cameras that captured some of this as well.
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We have no idea what the back story is so condemnation of either party is premature at this point. There is way too much knee-jerking in today's social media society.
You don't know what was intentional or what happened. The last time I owned and rode a motorcycle I hit oil on a cloverleaf and fell down. No one was behind me, and I wasn't going too fast. I was lucky. A friend of mine is living the rest of his life with one leg because a car, for whatever reason, ran into him. That's all I need to know about motorcycles for the rest of my life, it's bad enough in a car these days. I wouldn't recommend anyone slapping a car being macho about a lane, someone inside may very well have a gun and a short temper.
It's well known though that military have issue with their members dying or getting injured specifically on motorcycles.
You can make the argument and say "not all military members" or "i know so and so who's military and he's safe and I trust him" or "they're physically trained and disciplined so they should do better";
But the statistics are there that this is a population that dies specifically on motorcycles; probably worse than how male teenagers are statistically the ones that get into car accidents.
Not making it up, here's link to first article I googled from as far back as 2008. Marines even recognize the issue that it's killing their members, and began efforts to reduce it.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/30/marine.motorcycles/index.html?eref=onion
When I took my MSF course, the instructor off-handedly mentioned this thing as well, about the other courses he was instructing for military audience.
I won't try to recap any of the reasoning or why, google and you can find loads of articles on military dying on motorcycles.
But because I know this statistic, I can't help to color this specific incident where being military was likely a contributing factor that added to the deadliness of the situation, rather than something that reduced the deadliness.
Just like if the situations was about teenage boys in a sports car dying in a car crash at midnight, you'd all say, well duh to be expected.
You can make the argument and say "not all military members" or "i know so and so who's military and he's safe and I trust him" or "they're physically trained and disciplined so they should do better";
But the statistics are there that this is a population that dies specifically on motorcycles; probably worse than how male teenagers are statistically the ones that get into car accidents.
Not making it up, here's link to first article I googled from as far back as 2008. Marines even recognize the issue that it's killing their members, and began efforts to reduce it.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/30/marine.motorcycles/index.html?eref=onion
When I took my MSF course, the instructor off-handedly mentioned this thing as well, about the other courses he was instructing for military audience.
I won't try to recap any of the reasoning or why, google and you can find loads of articles on military dying on motorcycles.
But because I know this statistic, I can't help to color this specific incident where being military was likely a contributing factor that added to the deadliness of the situation, rather than something that reduced the deadliness.
Just like if the situations was about teenage boys in a sports car dying in a car crash at midnight, you'd all say, well duh to be expected.
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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
You don't know what was intentional or what happened. The last time I owned and rode a motorcycle I hit oil on a cloverleaf and fell down. No one was behind me, and I wasn't going too fast. I was lucky. A friend of mine is living the rest of his life with one leg because a car, for whatever reason, ran into him. That's all I need to know about motorcycles for the rest of my life, it's bad enough in a car these days. I wouldn't recommend anyone slapping a car being macho about a lane, someone inside may very well have a gun and a short temper.
Sometimes, you have to do whatever works, to get the attention of brain dead drivers. Given a choice between being crushed by a vehicle changing lanes over me, or slapping the car window......Well, I am writing this, so I will just say, slapping a window can be preferable.
If you think it is better to stay quiet, and wind up under a couple of tons of badly driven iron......Well, we all make choices.
You don't know what was intentional or what happened. The last time I owned and rode a motorcycle I hit oil on a cloverleaf and fell down. No one was behind me, and I wasn't going too fast. I was lucky. A friend of mine is living the rest of his life with one leg because a car, for whatever reason, ran into him. That's all I need to know about motorcycles for the rest of my life, it's bad enough in a car these days. I wouldn't recommend anyone slapping a car being macho about a lane, someone inside may very well have a gun and a short temper.
Sometimes, you have to do whatever works, to get the attention of brain dead drivers. Given a choice between being crushed by a vehicle changing lanes over me, or slapping the car window......Well, I am writing this, so I will just say, slapping a window can be preferable.
If you think it is better to stay quiet, and wind up under a couple of tons of badly driven iron......Well, we all make choices.
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
He made the CHOICE to ride a motorcycle. He was road raging with a person in a VEHICLE.
He was responsible for his death. If they had separated after the incident, that would have been the best.
Everyone knows you are less protected riding a motorcycle vs a automobile.
That is like if I flew over to ISIS unarmed and tell a militant officer armed with machetes and guns how awesome the U.S. is, then we get in a fight, what do you think would happen once escalated? Would you all be boo hooing for me if I got killed?
I knew the dangers, but took the risk, motorcyclist know the dangers, and take the risk. You want to road rage with machines that can kill you, go for it.
Yeah,,, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification in her using her car as a deadly weapon, and running him down and murdering him.
He made the CHOICE to ride a motorcycle. He was road raging with a person in a VEHICLE.
He was responsible for his death. If they had separated after the incident, that would have been the best.
Everyone knows you are less protected riding a motorcycle vs a automobile.
That is like if I flew over to ISIS unarmed and tell a militant officer armed with machetes and guns how awesome the U.S. is, then we get in a fight, what do you think would happen once escalated? Would you all be boo hooing for me if I got killed?
I knew the dangers, but took the risk, motorcyclist know the dangers, and take the risk. You want to road rage with machines that can kill you, go for it.
Yeah,,, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification in her using her car as a deadly weapon, and running him down and murdering him.
Whole lot of judgment with very few facts...... a terrible tragedy regardless
Originally Posted By: raytseng
I won't try to recap any of the reasoning or why, google and you can find loads of articles on military dying on motorcycles.
I can see it. Military are mostly young men, many thrill seekers, who don't make a whole lot of money, and a motorcycle is cheap reliable and exciting transportation.
It would be one thing to rear end the biker and run over them because they fell in front of the car. But to purposely run the guy over. That's going to do the woman in. No excuse. Especially when you can just drive off.
I'd be much more likely to favor the military person if I were sitting on that jury. It absolutely has relevance.
I won't try to recap any of the reasoning or why, google and you can find loads of articles on military dying on motorcycles.
I can see it. Military are mostly young men, many thrill seekers, who don't make a whole lot of money, and a motorcycle is cheap reliable and exciting transportation.
It would be one thing to rear end the biker and run over them because they fell in front of the car. But to purposely run the guy over. That's going to do the woman in. No excuse. Especially when you can just drive off.
I'd be much more likely to favor the military person if I were sitting on that jury. It absolutely has relevance.
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Panigale 1199s aren't exactly cheap....
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Yeah,,, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification in her using her car as a deadly weapon, and running him down and murdering him.
Nobody is saying there as justification.
Justification and putting yourself in a risky situation are 2 different things though.
You're assuming everyone else out there will act reasonably and 1) calculate the consequences 2) the consequences reliably happen and 3)they care about the consequences
This same thing applies to a bunch of other parallel situations. If everyone made their daily choices with an agreed upon set of perfect vulcan logic and justification, we would be in a different world indeed.
Yeah,,, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification in her using her car as a deadly weapon, and running him down and murdering him.
Nobody is saying there as justification.
Justification and putting yourself in a risky situation are 2 different things though.
You're assuming everyone else out there will act reasonably and 1) calculate the consequences 2) the consequences reliably happen and 3)they care about the consequences
This same thing applies to a bunch of other parallel situations. If everyone made their daily choices with an agreed upon set of perfect vulcan logic and justification, we would be in a different world indeed.
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Originally Posted By: Mik
Panigale 1199s aren't exactly cheap....
That shows you how much I know about cycles. I'd venture cheaper than a new Camaro or Vette.
In general though.
Panigale 1199s aren't exactly cheap....
That shows you how much I know about cycles. I'd venture cheaper than a new Camaro or Vette.
In general though.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
We will find out in court, all the facts. May common sense prevail. Surprised the "lane splitting" pro/con crowd has not shown up.
Lane splitting is still legal (More precisely, not ILlegal) in CA, so it would have been a reasonable and logical way to escape. I doubt the victim knew that she was after him.....I have slapped a few cars that invaded my lane, without anyone getting angry.....Most people realize they have made a mistake, and are apologetic. It is likely he thought the contact was incidental, no harm, no foul. It is hard to read other driver's minds.
CA. it is not legal, just a practice that's been let go, but now it is being considered legal as long as the motorcycle does not exceed 50mph and not faster than 15mph faster than the flow of traffic - being considered legal. At least that's what a radio program said that I listened to yesterday.
No matter, if a biker kicks my vehicle, sure I wouldn't be happy about it but it doesn't make it right for me to run over him on purpose.
I had to hard slap my hand on a side of a van once when a woman weaved over at me (didn't have a shoulder then to move over) and she jerked over away from me, opened her window yelling she was so sorry, but I didn't kick her vehicle.
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
We will find out in court, all the facts. May common sense prevail. Surprised the "lane splitting" pro/con crowd has not shown up.
Lane splitting is still legal (More precisely, not ILlegal) in CA, so it would have been a reasonable and logical way to escape. I doubt the victim knew that she was after him.....I have slapped a few cars that invaded my lane, without anyone getting angry.....Most people realize they have made a mistake, and are apologetic. It is likely he thought the contact was incidental, no harm, no foul. It is hard to read other driver's minds.
CA. it is not legal, just a practice that's been let go, but now it is being considered legal as long as the motorcycle does not exceed 50mph and not faster than 15mph faster than the flow of traffic - being considered legal. At least that's what a radio program said that I listened to yesterday.
No matter, if a biker kicks my vehicle, sure I wouldn't be happy about it but it doesn't make it right for me to run over him on purpose.
I had to hard slap my hand on a side of a van once when a woman weaved over at me (didn't have a shoulder then to move over) and she jerked over away from me, opened her window yelling she was so sorry, but I didn't kick her vehicle.
Ah, yes! The trial by public opinion, informed only by the usual biased "news" outlets has convened, convicted, and sentenced.
I pray to God that I never have to face a jury trial because not only does common sense not prevail, it literally does not exist.
Please be aware that I am not taking sides. I know very little about this incident. Most drivers suck, so...
I pray to God that I never have to face a jury trial because not only does common sense not prevail, it literally does not exist.
Please be aware that I am not taking sides. I know very little about this incident. Most drivers suck, so...
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
.Well, I am writing this, so I will just say, slapping a window can be preferable.
If you think it is better to stay quiet, and wind up under a couple of tons of badly driven iron......Well, we all make choices.
Why not use your horn. Slapping a car window is risky because your hands leaving the handlebars of any bike high speed is DANGEROUS
and you are touching private property. For all you know that action actually startles the driver and they have a reflex reaction that actually causes them to hit the bike.
.Well, I am writing this, so I will just say, slapping a window can be preferable.
If you think it is better to stay quiet, and wind up under a couple of tons of badly driven iron......Well, we all make choices.
Why not use your horn. Slapping a car window is risky because your hands leaving the handlebars of any bike high speed is DANGEROUS
and you are touching private property. For all you know that action actually startles the driver and they have a reflex reaction that actually causes them to hit the bike.
Originally Posted By: Mik
Panigale 1199s aren't exactly cheap....
Ducati's are the Ferrari of motorcycles... and typically cost 15 to 30 grand... not cheap for a motorcycle, but dirt cheap for that level of performance compared to any performance car.
And this story, as tragic as it is, probably does not show the complete picture... Road rage incidents usually get ugly because BOTH parties keep pushing. Not always, but very frequently... and as a motorcyclist myself, you learn very quickly that a car ALWAYS wins... if things get ugly, you GET FAR AWAY FROM THE CAR...!
And don't ever brake test a car while riding a bike... that is about THE STUPIDEST thing you can ever do... ! One report says the rider did just that.
Panigale 1199s aren't exactly cheap....
Ducati's are the Ferrari of motorcycles... and typically cost 15 to 30 grand... not cheap for a motorcycle, but dirt cheap for that level of performance compared to any performance car.
And this story, as tragic as it is, probably does not show the complete picture... Road rage incidents usually get ugly because BOTH parties keep pushing. Not always, but very frequently... and as a motorcyclist myself, you learn very quickly that a car ALWAYS wins... if things get ugly, you GET FAR AWAY FROM THE CAR...!
And don't ever brake test a car while riding a bike... that is about THE STUPIDEST thing you can ever do... ! One report says the rider did just that.
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Originally Posted By: pbm
I would also guess a Navy Sp. Op member would be fairly disciplined.
You might guess that...but it's often the opposite...
I would also guess a Navy Sp. Op member would be fairly disciplined.
You might guess that...but it's often the opposite...
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Yeah,,, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification in her using her car as a deadly weapon, and running him down and murdering him.
Nobody is saying there as justification.
Justification and putting yourself in a risky situation are 2 different things though.
You're assuming everyone else out there will act reasonably and 1) calculate the consequences 2) the consequences reliably happen and 3)they care about the consequences
This same thing applies to a bunch of other parallel situations. If everyone made their daily choices with an agreed upon set of perfect vulcan logic and justification, we would be in a different world indeed.
I'm not assuming anything. I simply stated that the only way she would be justified in running him down and murdering him, would be if he was attempting to use deadly force on her. So, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification for her murderous act.
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Yeah,,, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification in her using her car as a deadly weapon, and running him down and murdering him.
Nobody is saying there as justification.
Justification and putting yourself in a risky situation are 2 different things though.
You're assuming everyone else out there will act reasonably and 1) calculate the consequences 2) the consequences reliably happen and 3)they care about the consequences
This same thing applies to a bunch of other parallel situations. If everyone made their daily choices with an agreed upon set of perfect vulcan logic and justification, we would be in a different world indeed.
I'm not assuming anything. I simply stated that the only way she would be justified in running him down and murdering him, would be if he was attempting to use deadly force on her. So, unless he was actively shooting at her, there is no justification for her murderous act.
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