I have noticed that some filter manufacturers give the MPFE at a certain micron rating (ie, 20 microns), then give the SPFE at 10 microns. So that the SPFE % will be higher than the advertised MPFE as result of the different micron ratings and not because of the test method. I don't believe I have anything readily available in terms of filter comparisons or the time, but you may want to visit the Fleetguard site. They have comparisons to Baldwin and other competitors regarding the use of MPFE rather than SPFE.
Wix or Motorcraft?
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Originally Posted By: modularv8
I have noticed that some filter manufacturers give the MPFE at a certain micron rating (ie, 20 microns), then give the SPFE at 10 microns...
Here's one example where the efficiency is lower with muti-pass at 20 microns, than it is single pass at 15-20 microns.
Ecore multi and single pass %
I assume the continuous particle feed causes some to work through the media as it becomes loaded to the stopping point of the test, which is triggered by some maximum allowable pressure drop. This, of course, would lower the average and therefore the final percentage.
I agree that the thread-end bypass is better....all other things being equal. My filter sets thread end up, and I prefer thread end bypass in case there is debris collected in the bottom right near where the dome-end bypass would be opening.
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
I have noticed that some filter manufacturers give the MPFE at a certain micron rating (ie, 20 microns), then give the SPFE at 10 microns...
Here's one example where the efficiency is lower with muti-pass at 20 microns, than it is single pass at 15-20 microns.
Ecore multi and single pass %
I assume the continuous particle feed causes some to work through the media as it becomes loaded to the stopping point of the test, which is triggered by some maximum allowable pressure drop. This, of course, would lower the average and therefore the final percentage.
I agree that the thread-end bypass is better....all other things being equal. My filter sets thread end up, and I prefer thread end bypass in case there is debris collected in the bottom right near where the dome-end bypass would be opening.
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: modularv8
I have noticed that some filter manufacturers give the MPFE at a certain micron rating (ie, 20 microns), then give the SPFE at 10 microns...
Here's one example where the efficiency is lower with muti-pass at 20 microns, than it is single pass at 15-20 microns.
Ecore multi and single pass %
I assume the continuous particle feed causes some to work through the media as it becomes loaded to the stopping point of the test, which is triggered by some maximum allowable pressure drop. This, of course, would lower the average and therefore the final percentage.
I agree that the thread-end bypass is better....all other things being equal. My filter sets thread end up, and I prefer thread end bypass in case there is debris collected in the bottom right near where the dome-end bypass would be opening.
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
The result for the Single Pass test (SAE HS-806) is for all particles captured in the range of 10 - 20 microns. The SAE J1858 Multipass (obsolete) test standard requires the use of medium test dust (5 - 80 microns). Of these particles in this range, 20 microns represents about 30% by volume of the test dust. Champion chose to only give the result of the 20 micron particles captured. The two tests are not equivalent nor are the results for the test particle size the same; therefore, different results with the Single Pass test showing a higher efficiency because mathematically it is calculating a greater particle range (ie, 10 - 20 microns; more particles to capture) upstream/downstream.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
I have noticed that some filter manufacturers give the MPFE at a certain micron rating (ie, 20 microns), then give the SPFE at 10 microns...
Here's one example where the efficiency is lower with muti-pass at 20 microns, than it is single pass at 15-20 microns.
Ecore multi and single pass %
I assume the continuous particle feed causes some to work through the media as it becomes loaded to the stopping point of the test, which is triggered by some maximum allowable pressure drop. This, of course, would lower the average and therefore the final percentage.
I agree that the thread-end bypass is better....all other things being equal. My filter sets thread end up, and I prefer thread end bypass in case there is debris collected in the bottom right near where the dome-end bypass would be opening.
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
The result for the Single Pass test (SAE HS-806) is for all particles captured in the range of 10 - 20 microns. The SAE J1858 Multipass (obsolete) test standard requires the use of medium test dust (5 - 80 microns). Of these particles in this range, 20 microns represents about 30% by volume of the test dust. Champion chose to only give the result of the 20 micron particles captured. The two tests are not equivalent nor are the results for the test particle size the same; therefore, different results with the Single Pass test showing a higher efficiency because mathematically it is calculating a greater particle range (ie, 10 - 20 microns; more particles to capture) upstream/downstream.
About my "extensive research": I just went on google, typed wix cut open, bosch cut open, etc.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
That's somewhat surprising since the flow vs psid data from Purolator on the PL14006 (medium sized filter) could flow ~12 GPM of hot 5w-30 oil and only produce ~ 5 psid (see chart below) ... a level well below any bypass valve setting. Maybe WIX filters are pretty restrictive?
Parent thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
That's somewhat surprising since the flow vs psid data from Purolator on the PL14006 (medium sized filter) could flow ~12 GPM of hot 5w-30 oil and only produce ~ 5 psid (see chart below) ... a level well below any bypass valve setting. Maybe WIX filters are pretty restrictive?
Parent thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
Originally Posted By: johnsmellsalot
About my "extensive research": I just went on google, typed wix cut open, bosch cut open, etc.
And thats what you call "extensive research"....and you determined the WIX was the best? LOL
About my "extensive research": I just went on google, typed wix cut open, bosch cut open, etc.
And thats what you call "extensive research"....and you determined the WIX was the best? LOL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: river_rat
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
That's somewhat surprising since the flow vs psid data from Purolator on the PL14006 (medium sized filter) could flow ~12 GPM of hot 5w-30 oil and only produce ~ 5 psid (see chart below) ... a level well below any bypass valve setting. Maybe WIX filters are pretty restrictive?
Parent thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
The Purolator data is supposedly on a test stand with clean filter/oil at full operating temperature. In reality, the bypass opens much more often than people realize. Fram engineers claim the pressure relief valve will open about 25,000 - 30,000 times in the life of an engine.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
In pressure tests with a stock size Wix filter, my filter goes into at least some bypass at warm-up even on warm days, and any time the engine gets much over 3000 RPM at full oil temperature.
That's somewhat surprising since the flow vs psid data from Purolator on the PL14006 (medium sized filter) could flow ~12 GPM of hot 5w-30 oil and only produce ~ 5 psid (see chart below) ... a level well below any bypass valve setting. Maybe WIX filters are pretty restrictive?
Parent thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451
The Purolator data is supposedly on a test stand with clean filter/oil at full operating temperature. In reality, the bypass opens much more often than people realize. Fram engineers claim the pressure relief valve will open about 25,000 - 30,000 times in the life of an engine.
river_rat, what's the GPM on your pump? I'm assuming you're talking about your VW and a 51348? That usually runs much thicker than 5W30, correct?
Originally Posted By: cp3
river_rat, what's the GPM on your pump? I'm assuming you're talking about your VW and a 51348? That usually runs much thicker than 5W30, correct?
No, this was a 2011 Toyota Tacoma, 2.7 liter, 4 cylinder.
The filter was brand new Wix 51348, and the oil was fresh Valvoline Synpower 5W-30.
I am really not surprised these little filters evidently bypass some of the oil pretty often.
river_rat, what's the GPM on your pump? I'm assuming you're talking about your VW and a 51348? That usually runs much thicker than 5W30, correct?
No, this was a 2011 Toyota Tacoma, 2.7 liter, 4 cylinder.
The filter was brand new Wix 51348, and the oil was fresh Valvoline Synpower 5W-30.
I am really not surprised these little filters evidently bypass some of the oil pretty often.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
The Purolator data is supposedly on a test stand with clean filter/oil at full operating temperature.
True.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
In reality, the bypass opens much more often than people realize. Fram engineers claim the pressure relief valve will open about 25,000 - 30,000 times in the life of an engine.
Based on the flow vs psid data from Purolator, theoretically that PL14006 filter was not go into bypass mode with the engine at redline all day long if the filter was new and not loaded at all.
That's why it's hard to understand why RR's 4-banger Toyota is going into bypass with hot oil anytime the engine is at 3000 RPM or more - I doubt that engine is putting out 10+ GPM even at redline. To me, I'd have to conclude the WIX is pretty restrictive and/or its bypass valve was flaky.
The Purolator data is supposedly on a test stand with clean filter/oil at full operating temperature.
True.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
In reality, the bypass opens much more often than people realize. Fram engineers claim the pressure relief valve will open about 25,000 - 30,000 times in the life of an engine.
Based on the flow vs psid data from Purolator, theoretically that PL14006 filter was not go into bypass mode with the engine at redline all day long if the filter was new and not loaded at all.
That's why it's hard to understand why RR's 4-banger Toyota is going into bypass with hot oil anytime the engine is at 3000 RPM or more - I doubt that engine is putting out 10+ GPM even at redline. To me, I'd have to conclude the WIX is pretty restrictive and/or its bypass valve was flaky.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: cp3
river_rat, what's the GPM on your pump? I'm assuming you're talking about your VW and a 51348? That usually runs much thicker than 5W30, correct?
No, this was a 2011 Toyota Tacoma, 2.7 liter, 4 cylinder.
The filter was brand new Wix 51348, and the oil was fresh Valvoline Synpower 5W-30.
I am really not surprised these little filters evidently bypass some of the oil pretty often.
Well I was close....lol had to check back and make sure that it was even you with the VW! Whew!
Interesting, I have one of those to open up that came off the Saturn on the weekend. I'll have to keep the element to see how it compares in size to the 51040 and look up the bypass for the G6. So how do you tell it's bypassing, gauges?
Originally Posted By: cp3
river_rat, what's the GPM on your pump? I'm assuming you're talking about your VW and a 51348? That usually runs much thicker than 5W30, correct?
No, this was a 2011 Toyota Tacoma, 2.7 liter, 4 cylinder.
The filter was brand new Wix 51348, and the oil was fresh Valvoline Synpower 5W-30.
I am really not surprised these little filters evidently bypass some of the oil pretty often.
Well I was close....lol had to check back and make sure that it was even you with the VW! Whew!
Interesting, I have one of those to open up that came off the Saturn on the weekend. I'll have to keep the element to see how it compares in size to the 51040 and look up the bypass for the G6. So how do you tell it's bypassing, gauges?
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Based on the flow vs psid data from Purolator, theoretically that PL14006 filter was not go into bypass mode with the engine at redline all day long if the filter was new and not loaded at all.
Sure it would, the PL14006 doesn't have a bypass!...sorry couldn't resist but I see what you are saying.
OK, the 51348 lists a max GPM of 7-9, the 51042 that crosses to the PL14006 lists 9-11 max GPM. Maybe they are more restrictive but can we say for sure without knowing the pump output?
Based on the flow vs psid data from Purolator, theoretically that PL14006 filter was not go into bypass mode with the engine at redline all day long if the filter was new and not loaded at all.
Sure it would, the PL14006 doesn't have a bypass!...sorry couldn't resist but I see what you are saying.
OK, the 51348 lists a max GPM of 7-9, the 51042 that crosses to the PL14006 lists 9-11 max GPM. Maybe they are more restrictive but can we say for sure without knowing the pump output?
Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Based on the flow vs psid data from Purolator, theoretically that PL14006 filter was not go into bypass mode with the engine at redline all day long if the filter was new and not loaded at all.
Sure it would, the PL14006 doesn't have a bypass!...sorry couldn't resist but I see what you are saying.
The filter does essentially have a bypass valve when mounted to the engine. The PSID across the filter will still actuate the bypass valve if too high. Point was, the PL14006 would flow 12 GPM of hot oil with ~5 PSID, which is still below the 8~10 psi setting of the bypass valve built into to engine block on an LS series GM V8.
Originally Posted By: cp3
OK, the 51348 lists a max GPM of 7-9, the 51042 that crosses to the PL14006 lists 9-11 max GPM. Maybe they are more restrictive but can we say for sure without knowing the pump output?
Nope ... you would never know without testing both on the same flow bench under the same oil viscosity and flow conditions. The spec of "9-11 GPM max" doesn't say much unless it's assumed that is the flow rate of hot oil in a brand new filter at which the by-pass valve starts to open.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Based on the flow vs psid data from Purolator, theoretically that PL14006 filter was not go into bypass mode with the engine at redline all day long if the filter was new and not loaded at all.
Sure it would, the PL14006 doesn't have a bypass!...sorry couldn't resist but I see what you are saying.
The filter does essentially have a bypass valve when mounted to the engine. The PSID across the filter will still actuate the bypass valve if too high. Point was, the PL14006 would flow 12 GPM of hot oil with ~5 PSID, which is still below the 8~10 psi setting of the bypass valve built into to engine block on an LS series GM V8.
Originally Posted By: cp3
OK, the 51348 lists a max GPM of 7-9, the 51042 that crosses to the PL14006 lists 9-11 max GPM. Maybe they are more restrictive but can we say for sure without knowing the pump output?
Nope ... you would never know without testing both on the same flow bench under the same oil viscosity and flow conditions. The spec of "9-11 GPM max" doesn't say much unless it's assumed that is the flow rate of hot oil in a brand new filter at which the by-pass valve starts to open.
Just as FYI. Todd Vick, Purolator engineering manager (back in June), mentioned that the PSID spec listed on their site and literature is not correct (PL24651). He said the pressure relief valves routinely test at 17 PSID, with differential flow across the media up to 18 gpm will typically not open the RV. Not certain if this applies to all filters. Either way, he said Purolator would be revising the listed PSID for their oil filters in future publications (presumably the Pureoil site as well).
Originally Posted By: cp3
Well I was close....lol had to check back and make sure that it was even you with the VW! Whew!
Interesting, I have one of those to open up that came off the Saturn on the weekend. I'll have to keep the element to see how it compares in size to the 51040 and look up the bypass for the G6. So how do you tell it's bypassing, gauges?
Ya. That's me.
Yes I used gauges. when the difference got to around 8 psi, they began to stabilize. I could not get much more PSID across the filter than that. I don't feel Wix are restrictive. It has 100 square inches of media... a little more than the Purolator L10241 that fits. The Puro's bypass setting is a little higher than Wix's.
It was what it was. The gauges were good.
Well I was close....lol had to check back and make sure that it was even you with the VW! Whew!
Interesting, I have one of those to open up that came off the Saturn on the weekend. I'll have to keep the element to see how it compares in size to the 51040 and look up the bypass for the G6. So how do you tell it's bypassing, gauges?
Ya. That's me.
Yes I used gauges. when the difference got to around 8 psi, they began to stabilize. I could not get much more PSID across the filter than that. I don't feel Wix are restrictive. It has 100 square inches of media... a little more than the Purolator L10241 that fits. The Puro's bypass setting is a little higher than Wix's.
It was what it was. The gauges were good.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
MC is cheaper here. Typically about $4-5 vs $6-8 for Wix or NAPA Gold.
We are at a disadvantage up here, since Motorcraft filters are only sold by the dealer. There are some available at online Canadian retailers, but their markup is so high that it's laughable (i.e. over $20 for an FL1A)
For my F-150, the FL1A is around $7 or $8, if I recall correctly. The Wix 51515 is $4.99.
For the G37, the Motorcraft filter is $10,50, and the Wix 51365 is $9.99. I'm considering a switch to Hastings, since I can get it for around $7.
MC is cheaper here. Typically about $4-5 vs $6-8 for Wix or NAPA Gold.
We are at a disadvantage up here, since Motorcraft filters are only sold by the dealer. There are some available at online Canadian retailers, but their markup is so high that it's laughable (i.e. over $20 for an FL1A)
For my F-150, the FL1A is around $7 or $8, if I recall correctly. The Wix 51515 is $4.99.
For the G37, the Motorcraft filter is $10,50, and the Wix 51365 is $9.99. I'm considering a switch to Hastings, since I can get it for around $7.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Yes I used gauges. when the difference got to around 8 psi, they began to stabilize. I could not get much more PSID across the filter than that. I don't feel Wix are restrictive. It has 100 square inches of media... a little more than the Purolator L10241 that fits. The Puro's bypass setting is a little higher than Wix's.
So you're basically saying the bypass valve in that filter was also set to ~8 psi? Maybe WIX is using too low of a bypass setting on some filters for the restrictive factor they have (?).
IMO, if that filter really was producing 8 PSID at 3000 RPM with hot oil, then it is probably more relatively restrictive than some other filters.
Yes I used gauges. when the difference got to around 8 psi, they began to stabilize. I could not get much more PSID across the filter than that. I don't feel Wix are restrictive. It has 100 square inches of media... a little more than the Purolator L10241 that fits. The Puro's bypass setting is a little higher than Wix's.
So you're basically saying the bypass valve in that filter was also set to ~8 psi? Maybe WIX is using too low of a bypass setting on some filters for the restrictive factor they have (?).
IMO, if that filter really was producing 8 PSID at 3000 RPM with hot oil, then it is probably more relatively restrictive than some other filters.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Just as FYI. Todd Vick, Purolator engineering manager (back in June), mentioned that the PSID spec listed on their site and literature is not correct (PL24651).
I've never seen PSID specs listed for any filter on Purolator's website. PSID spec is not the same as bypass valve setting pressure IMO - you need viscosity/flow factor to determine actual PSID. Can you link to this info on Purolator's site?
Originally Posted By: modularv8
He said the pressure relief valves routinely test at 17 PSID, with differential flow across the media up to 18 gpm will typically not open the RV. Not certain if this applies to all filters.
If that's the case, then that tells me there is less than 17 PSID across that filter's media with 18 GPM flow rate (obviously hot oil).
Just as FYI. Todd Vick, Purolator engineering manager (back in June), mentioned that the PSID spec listed on their site and literature is not correct (PL24651).
I've never seen PSID specs listed for any filter on Purolator's website. PSID spec is not the same as bypass valve setting pressure IMO - you need viscosity/flow factor to determine actual PSID. Can you link to this info on Purolator's site?
Originally Posted By: modularv8
He said the pressure relief valves routinely test at 17 PSID, with differential flow across the media up to 18 gpm will typically not open the RV. Not certain if this applies to all filters.
If that's the case, then that tells me there is less than 17 PSID across that filter's media with 18 GPM flow rate (obviously hot oil).
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: river_rat
MC is cheaper here. Typically about $4-5 vs $6-8 for Wix or NAPA Gold.
We are at a disadvantage up here, since Motorcraft filters are only sold by the dealer. There are some available at online Canadian retailers, but their markup is so high that it's laughable (i.e. over $20 for an FL1A)
For my F-150, the FL1A is around $7 or $8, if I recall correctly. The Wix 51515 is $4.99.
For the G37, the Motorcraft filter is $10,50, and the Wix 51365 is $9.99. I'm considering a switch to Hastings, since I can get it for around $7.
I see the same thing except with out ordering online Wix or Gold is $10+, more for ACDelco. Best I've found is the Baldwin for $5.60. These are all the spin on for the G6. Never priced the Motorcraft, not sure I could bring myself to put one on a GM, even though I have no doubt they are a good filter.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
MC is cheaper here. Typically about $4-5 vs $6-8 for Wix or NAPA Gold.
We are at a disadvantage up here, since Motorcraft filters are only sold by the dealer. There are some available at online Canadian retailers, but their markup is so high that it's laughable (i.e. over $20 for an FL1A)
For my F-150, the FL1A is around $7 or $8, if I recall correctly. The Wix 51515 is $4.99.
For the G37, the Motorcraft filter is $10,50, and the Wix 51365 is $9.99. I'm considering a switch to Hastings, since I can get it for around $7.
I see the same thing except with out ordering online Wix or Gold is $10+, more for ACDelco. Best I've found is the Baldwin for $5.60. These are all the spin on for the G6. Never priced the Motorcraft, not sure I could bring myself to put one on a GM, even though I have no doubt they are a good filter.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: modularv8
He said the pressure relief valves routinely test at 17 PSID, with differential flow across the media up to 18 gpm will typically not open the RV. Not certain if this applies to all filters.
If that's the case, then that tells me there is less than 17 PSID across that filter's media with 18 GPM flow rate (obviously hot oil).
Forgot to say, that a filter with those flow and bypass valve characteristics would rarely if ever go into bypass mode unless it was horribly loaded up with debris.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
He said the pressure relief valves routinely test at 17 PSID, with differential flow across the media up to 18 gpm will typically not open the RV. Not certain if this applies to all filters.
If that's the case, then that tells me there is less than 17 PSID across that filter's media with 18 GPM flow rate (obviously hot oil).
Forgot to say, that a filter with those flow and bypass valve characteristics would rarely if ever go into bypass mode unless it was horribly loaded up with debris.
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