Why good cops can't turn in bad cops

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Originally Posted By: yeti
[

your mental condition


Genius my friend, something we can both agree you don't suffer.

These issues are very important. If people lay down and accept increasing police powers we could end up in a bad place. We don't want to give some 20 year old cop that kind of power . You guys in Canada can do what you want. I doubt the world is looking there for leadership. Well maybe for curling...
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
[
These issues are very important. If people lay down and accept increasing police powers we could end up in a bad place. We don't want to give some 20 year old cop that kind of power . You guys in Canada can do what you want. I doubt the world is looking there for leadership. Well maybe for curling...




Nor should the rest of the world look to the US for leadership, considering how we have invaded dozens of sovereign nations in just the past few decades or so. Nations that posed NO threat to us in any way shape of form. I'm a US born and raised citizen by the way.
All the while we can't even defend our own borders. That would make our leadership criminal, treasonous, rogue, and hypocritical too.
 
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
[
These issues are very important. If people lay down and accept increasing police powers we could end up in a bad place. We don't want to give some 20 year old cop that kind of power . You guys in Canada can do what you want. I doubt the world is looking there for leadership. Well maybe for curling...




Nor should the rest of the world look to the US for leadership, considering how we have invaded dozens of sovereign nations in just the past few decades or so. Nations that posed NO threat to us in any way shape of form. I'm a US born and raised citizen by the way.
All the while we can't even defend our own borders. That would make our leadership criminal, treasonous, rogue, and hypocritical too.


What country should the world look to for leadership?

P.S. I hear there is a minority family moving on your block.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
[
These issues are very important. If people lay down and accept increasing police powers we could end up in a bad place. We don't want to give some 20 year old cop that kind of power . You guys in Canada can do what you want. I doubt the world is looking there for leadership. Well maybe for curling...




Nor should the rest of the world look to the US for leadership, considering how we have invaded dozens of sovereign nations in just the past few decades or so. Nations that posed NO threat to us in any way shape of form. I'm a US born and raised citizen by the way.
All the while we can't even defend our own borders. That would make our leadership criminal, treasonous, rogue, and hypocritical too.


What country should the world look to for leadership?

P.S. I hear there is a minority family moving on your block.




On this Earth you won't find the right place to look for leadership.

Unfortunately there ALREADY are blacks on this street and they are just as unpleasant, disturbing, and trouble making as you expect.

The cops are CONSTANTLY at the one home, I would say they arrive there about every other week! No joke.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The incredulous thing is that you think stopping someone for no other reason than to check their license is a good thing that should be done in a free country. You have some sorta cult following on here else people would be all over you.

Nope, that isn't it at all. These sentences sum up the debate perfectly. Only your opinions matter, and the only reason you can see for dissent is mental defect or brainwashing. Of course, you're right. You've covered both sides of the debate and claimed them as your own. That's covering the spread and then some.

And you can talk about how people "lay down" and accept increased police powers. That's not what happened here. The power didn't move one iota in either direction. That power has been in place since the automobile became important to society and as a law enforcement tool. Police haven't sought more from a legal standpoint and there's been no protests for the reverse. As I said, even the most rabid defence lawyers don't tilt at that windmill.

But, of course, we don't have the situation where police are simultaneously a law unto themselves (a cult, as you say) and answer to no one all the while having most bad stops tossed out.

I would suggest there isn't so much a giant gap in the legal systems or freedoms as there is an attempt to subvert the rules of logic to one's whims.
wink.gif
 
Subverting logic is the only way you can smear a group (police) whose interactions with suspects are over 99% safe and effective.

It's the same way the media characterizes the Israeli/Palestinian interaction falsely and deceptively to make it look as though innocent children are being slaughtered.

Only for the kool aid drinkers...
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The incredulous thing is that you think stopping someone for no other reason than to check their license is a good thing that should be done in a free country. You have some sorta cult following on here else people would be all over you.

Nope, that isn't it at all. These sentences sum up the debate perfectly. Only your opinions matter, and the only reason you can see for dissent is mental defect or brainwashing. Of course, you're right. You've covered both sides of the debate and claimed them as your own. That's covering the spread and then some.

And you can talk about how people "lay down" and accept increased police powers. That's not what happened here. The power didn't move one iota in either direction. That power has been in place since the automobile became important to society and as a law enforcement tool. Police haven't sought more from a legal standpoint and there's been no protests for the reverse. As I said, even the most rabid defence lawyers don't tilt at that windmill.

But, of course, we don't have the situation where police are simultaneously a law unto themselves (a cult, as you say) and answer to no one all the while having most bad stops tossed out.

I would suggest there isn't so much a giant gap in the legal systems or freedoms as there is an attempt to subvert the rules of logic to one's whims.
wink.gif



You type pages of stuff and it doesn't form a strong logical argument.

I really dont care what a tiny country does. If they started stopping people for license checks here you'd see major public uproar like you've never seen.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Subverting logic is the only way you can smear a group (police) whose interactions with suspects are over 99% safe and effective..


As long as that 1% is black people being harassed and killed, you are happy as a clam?
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You type pages of stuff and it doesn't form a strong logical argument.


LOLing at this...

and this

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Being a cop is like being in a cult or the mafia. They have no one to answer to like the rest of us. Most everyone who has a job has a boss and gets a review. These guys spend 100% of the time covering for each other. There are no consequences and they think they have a job for life no matter what they do.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Most of the bad stops you hear about here go to court and get thrown out. Many times the cops get disciplined as well. We have the laws and court so people can challenge these bad cops and eventually they'll get retired or fired.

Thanks, Silverado12, for the reminder. Turtlevette is talking out of both sides of his mouth once again.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Subverting logic is the only way you can smear a group (police) whose interactions with suspects are over 99% safe and effective..


As long as that 1% is black people being harassed and killed, you are happy as a clam?



Nope, just pointing out that it is an enviable rate of success. FAR MORE white people are killed! You'll never get perfection...
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You type pages of stuff and it doesn't form a strong logical argument.


LOLing at this...

and this

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Being a cop is like being in a cult or the mafia. They have no one to answer to like the rest of us. Most everyone who has a job has a boss and gets a review. These guys spend 100% of the time covering for each other. There are no consequences and they think they have a job for life no matter what they do.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Most of the bad stops you hear about here go to court and get thrown out. Many times the cops get disciplined as well. We have the laws and court so people can challenge these bad cops and eventually they'll get retired or fired.

Thanks, Silverado12, for the reminder. Turtlevette is talking out of both sides of his mouth once again.


shannow -- isn't this great?

garak-- why do you keep sparring with a guy that has an admitted mental condition? (admitted "attitude", which is a behavioral problem, and behavioral problems ARE mental problems.)
carry on, guys. you're giving several of us a lot of laughs.
 
One statement is from the standpoint of enforcement the other is from the courts interpretation of the law.

The cops can "legislate" from the crown vic by discriminating in enforcement. A racist cop can decide to pull over dark skinned people only. Or mostly sports cars, so on and so forth.

From a legal perspective we must have methods in place to prevent that. Allowing the cop to license check provides no checks on discriminatory behavior.
 
If you put too many limitations on the police, the police cannot do their jobs. And it is impossible to prevent the occasional bad cop from getting employment by a police agency. Just like an occasional bad employee will be hired by any other sort of business or governmental agency or organization. But the bad cops usually wind up getting fired or being criminally charged if they commit criminal behavior.

If a police officer was pulling over only non-white people, that would become very obvious soon. It could easily be documented. Even a racist cop would have to pull over people, white or not, who were in violation somehow, such as having a headlight out or whatever.

All of this current 'in' hatred for the police in the end will harm poor people the most. Because poor people and minority group people often need to depend on the police for protection more than anybody else. And eventually the current fad of hating the police will pass, and people will move on to some new fad.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
If you put too many limitations on the police, the police cannot do their jobs.


Yet we must have minimum standards like probable cause, that must never be erroded, which distinguishes us from places like Russia, China, n korea and various banana republics throughout the world.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You type pages of stuff and it doesn't form a strong logical argument.

You type two sentences in one thread that aren't even logically consistent. And no, those weren't standpoints you made based upon standpoints of enforcement and standpoints of the courts, at all. You foisted them as personal opinion and personal experience. When does enforcement view themselves as a cult or a mafia?

yeti: I don't know, honestly. I'm trying to explain to him that probable cause really is a bunch of magical thinking when it comes to eliminating discrimination on behalf a a law enforcement officer. As I've said several times, if a police officer wants to pull you over, he's going to pull you over. Of course, up here even, when people are pulled over, it's usually, but not always, for a reason. And, like I said, push the "reason" thing too much, and you just may get what you wish for.

You don't want to eliminate discrimination on behalf of a law enforcement officer. That's counterproductive. You don't want them to discriminate by gender, religion, race, or so forth. But you sure as heck want them to be able to discriminate between the law abiding and the law breaking. You want them to be paying their attention where they might get something done.

Turtlevette, pulling over "mostly sports cars" isn't racist. Sports car owners aren't a protected group based on race, religion, gender, or so forth.
 
Yes, that is right. Police officers need to be able to determine likely suspects when they pull somebody over. That does not mean just stopping minority group people. But the police are already aware of some people who are criminals. Criminals tend to continue to commit crime. Some reform. But not all. And there can be other indications-like strange behavior on the part of the driver or some sort of vehicle issue. The cop is going to have to stop the car with a headlight out or tail-light out anyway. If there is a vehicle maintenance issue the car has to be pulled over.

The cop may notice something when he stops the car. Maybe some strange smell or something like that. Some illegal drugs have strong smells.

Every situation is different. You can't expect every stop to precisely follow some textbook description. And police officers have to be able to think logically and able to observe well.

Same thing with two guys walking down a street at 3:00 AM. Sure, they have a right to be walking at 3:00 AM. But it is a little strange and police have to be able to stop and talk to such individuals. If it is obvious the guys have objects in their pockets, the police may ask to see those objects. And if those objects are a pry bar for forcing a window open or illegal knives, guess what? The police may have just prevented a home invasion.

The police have to have knowledge of law breakers, how they operate, who they are, and the police have to have common sense and be allowed to do their jobs. That is not a police state. That is the police doing their jobs.
 
Garak,the support for law enforcement is at an all time low here in the U.S. A family member is a TACT officer in Chicago & hasn't done a traffic stop in years. He doesn't pull over "junkers" looking for some nonsense traffic violations.
 
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