The only part of the price that bothers me is the amount of it that is nothing more than tax. All the while, the government is complaining they need even more. When one figures all the taxes being paid on one gallon of gas, up to 1/3 or more of the total cost the consumer has to pay at the pump, it makes it difficult for the average consumer not to complain. If they actually did use all of it to repair roads efficiently, then it would be a different story. But to use it to study why monkeys have excreta fights at the zoo, nature bike trails, and it takes longer today to build a common freeway interchange than it did to build the entire Alaska-Canada highway or the completed Empire State Building, I am not buying that they aren't getting enough.
what's up with gas prices?
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
How is fuel a market commodity unlike any other?
What matters is not what the futures markets or speculators bid the price to. What matters is what the final buyers, you and I, are willing to pay.
In the short run, the demand for fuel is somewhat price inelastic.
In the longer term, it's highly elastic.
In the short run, we drive less and some of us may put less than a full tank of fuel in our vehicles at any given time.
In the longer run, we switch to more efficient vehicles and end up with the same or lower fuel costs than we had before at lower fuel prices.
A certain level of short run price inelasticity does not the lack of a real market make.
Anyway, for producers, transporters, refiners and retailers, it's never about price. It's only about margin. Margin matters to a seller. Price is irrelevant.
None of this changes the fact that the oil industry has no competition...no competition means higher prices...now if we had alternatives available in large enough quantities to directly compete with the oil industry, then all prices would be lower...
How is fuel a market commodity unlike any other?
What matters is not what the futures markets or speculators bid the price to. What matters is what the final buyers, you and I, are willing to pay.
In the short run, the demand for fuel is somewhat price inelastic.
In the longer term, it's highly elastic.
In the short run, we drive less and some of us may put less than a full tank of fuel in our vehicles at any given time.
In the longer run, we switch to more efficient vehicles and end up with the same or lower fuel costs than we had before at lower fuel prices.
A certain level of short run price inelasticity does not the lack of a real market make.
Anyway, for producers, transporters, refiners and retailers, it's never about price. It's only about margin. Margin matters to a seller. Price is irrelevant.
None of this changes the fact that the oil industry has no competition...no competition means higher prices...now if we had alternatives available in large enough quantities to directly compete with the oil industry, then all prices would be lower...
I think there would be more competition if the regulatory requirements weren't such a high hurdle to get over. Again, the government is to blame, but then, they will let you know every day of your life that they care for you and it is all for the children.
What are you saying here?
If you mean that only oil producers produce oil, only oil refiners produce products for resale and only fuel retailers sell gasoline and diesel to end users, then you're right.
You could apply the same logic to any other industry in the world and arrive at the same conclusion.
If you mean that only oil producers produce oil, only oil refiners produce products for resale and only fuel retailers sell gasoline and diesel to end users, then you're right.
You could apply the same logic to any other industry in the world and arrive at the same conclusion.
Starting to drop here again, a little at least.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
The only part of the price that bothers me is the amount of it that is nothing more than tax. All the while, the government is complaining they need even more. When one figures all the taxes being paid on one gallon of gas, up to 1/3 or more of the total cost the consumer has to pay at the pump, it makes it difficult for the average consumer not to complain. If they actually did use all of it to repair roads efficiently, then it would be a different story. But to use it to study why monkeys have excreta fights at the zoo, nature bike trails, and it takes longer today to build a common freeway interchange than it did to build the entire Alaska-Canada highway or the completed Empire State Building, I am not buying that they aren't getting enough.
Quote:
The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel. On average, as of January 2015, state and local taxes add 30.1 cents to gasoline and 30.1 cents to diesel, for a total US average fuel tax of 48.5 cents per gallon for gas and 54.5 cents per gallon for diesel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
The Federal tax was last raised in 1993 so with inflation and increased MPG levels, the highway trust fund can no longer pay for new construction and maintenance.
The only part of the price that bothers me is the amount of it that is nothing more than tax. All the while, the government is complaining they need even more. When one figures all the taxes being paid on one gallon of gas, up to 1/3 or more of the total cost the consumer has to pay at the pump, it makes it difficult for the average consumer not to complain. If they actually did use all of it to repair roads efficiently, then it would be a different story. But to use it to study why monkeys have excreta fights at the zoo, nature bike trails, and it takes longer today to build a common freeway interchange than it did to build the entire Alaska-Canada highway or the completed Empire State Building, I am not buying that they aren't getting enough.
Quote:
The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel. On average, as of January 2015, state and local taxes add 30.1 cents to gasoline and 30.1 cents to diesel, for a total US average fuel tax of 48.5 cents per gallon for gas and 54.5 cents per gallon for diesel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
The Federal tax was last raised in 1993 so with inflation and increased MPG levels, the highway trust fund can no longer pay for new construction and maintenance.
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RBOB, (wholesale) gas price was $1.34 in Jan. Last Mon. was $2.08, this morning it is $2.01 . NC Pump prices usually follow RBOB + $0.70 in about 10 days. NC State gas tax is the highest in the nation, equal to Oregon. SC is $0.13 lower locally. Local prices have been artificially low until about 2-3 weeks ago. It's now just under $2.50. $1.30 lower then this time last year. Wholesalers and large retailers hedged heavily back in Jan. causing a delay in price changes.
Originally Posted By: Oldmoparguy1
RBOB, (wholesale) gas price was $1.34 in Jan. Last Mon. was $2.08, this morning it is $2.01 . NC Pump prices usually follow RBOB + $0.70 in about 10 days. NC State gas tax is the highest in the nation, equal to Oregon. SC is $0.13 lower locally. Local prices have been artificially low until about 2-3 weeks ago. It's now just under $2.50. $1.30 lower then this time last year. Wholesalers and large retailers hedged heavily back in Jan. causing a delay in price changes.
NC State gas tax is NOT the highest in the nation, California is. Today average in Orange County, So Cal is $3.83 more than $1 more than your area.
RBOB, (wholesale) gas price was $1.34 in Jan. Last Mon. was $2.08, this morning it is $2.01 . NC Pump prices usually follow RBOB + $0.70 in about 10 days. NC State gas tax is the highest in the nation, equal to Oregon. SC is $0.13 lower locally. Local prices have been artificially low until about 2-3 weeks ago. It's now just under $2.50. $1.30 lower then this time last year. Wholesalers and large retailers hedged heavily back in Jan. causing a delay in price changes.
NC State gas tax is NOT the highest in the nation, California is. Today average in Orange County, So Cal is $3.83 more than $1 more than your area.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
The Federal tax was last raised in 1993 so with inflation and increased MPG levels, the highway trust fund can no longer pay for new construction and maintenance.
The highway trust? What a waste..
Yes if you walk everywhere.
Originally Posted By: Bamaro
The Federal tax was last raised in 1993 so with inflation and increased MPG levels, the highway trust fund can no longer pay for new construction and maintenance.
The highway trust? What a waste..
Yes if you walk everywhere.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Oldmoparguy1
RBOB, (wholesale) gas price was $1.34 in Jan. Last Mon. was $2.08, this morning it is $2.01 . NC Pump prices usually follow RBOB + $0.70 in about 10 days. NC State gas tax is the highest in the nation, equal to Oregon. SC is $0.13 lower locally. Local prices have been artificially low until about 2-3 weeks ago. It's now just under $2.50. $1.30 lower then this time last year. Wholesalers and large retailers hedged heavily back in Jan. causing a delay in price changes.
NC State gas tax is NOT the highest in the nation, California is. Today average in Orange County, So Cal is $3.83 more than $1 more than your area.
I stand corrected.
Originally Posted By: Oldmoparguy1
RBOB, (wholesale) gas price was $1.34 in Jan. Last Mon. was $2.08, this morning it is $2.01 . NC Pump prices usually follow RBOB + $0.70 in about 10 days. NC State gas tax is the highest in the nation, equal to Oregon. SC is $0.13 lower locally. Local prices have been artificially low until about 2-3 weeks ago. It's now just under $2.50. $1.30 lower then this time last year. Wholesalers and large retailers hedged heavily back in Jan. causing a delay in price changes.
NC State gas tax is NOT the highest in the nation, California is. Today average in Orange County, So Cal is $3.83 more than $1 more than your area.
I stand corrected.
New York 42.4
Pennsylvania 40.7
California 39.5
North Carolina 37.5,38.5 after 6/1/15
Washington 37.5
West Virginia 35.7
Wisconsin 32.9
Maine 30.0
Info found here.
California gasoline excise tax actually is 36 cents a gallon, but the state charges sale tax of 7% on top of wholesale price + Federal gas tax + state gas tax, local(Orange County) add 1% sale tax so the total gasoline sale tax is 8%. As of today I think we pay 25-26 cents state sale tax on top of 36 cents excise tax, the state of California take in as much as 60-62 cents per gallon of gas. When gas price was above $4.50 couple years ago the state of California took in more than 70 cents for every gallon of gas.
The list above is just various states excise tax.
The list above is just various states excise tax.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
What are you saying here?
If you mean that only oil producers produce oil, only oil refiners produce products for resale and only fuel retailers sell gasoline and diesel to end users, then you're right.
You could apply the same logic to any other industry in the world and arrive at the same conclusion.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the oil industry, which produces gasoline and diesel fuels has no competition...unless you consider all electric vehicles, and CNG powered vehicles competition...there aren't enough alternative powered vehicles or their resources available as of yet to even come close to competing with the oil industry, and until this happens, consumers will be at the mercy of big oil...no competition means THEY dictate prices....
What are you saying here?
If you mean that only oil producers produce oil, only oil refiners produce products for resale and only fuel retailers sell gasoline and diesel to end users, then you're right.
You could apply the same logic to any other industry in the world and arrive at the same conclusion.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the oil industry, which produces gasoline and diesel fuels has no competition...unless you consider all electric vehicles, and CNG powered vehicles competition...there aren't enough alternative powered vehicles or their resources available as of yet to even come close to competing with the oil industry, and until this happens, consumers will be at the mercy of big oil...no competition means THEY dictate prices....
Similarly, are you stating that the auto industry has no competition, unless you consider public transit, bicycles, and feet?
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
What are you saying here?
If you mean that only oil producers produce oil, only oil refiners produce products for resale and only fuel retailers sell gasoline and diesel to end users, then you're right.
You could apply the same logic to any other industry in the world and arrive at the same conclusion.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the oil industry, which produces gasoline and diesel fuels has no competition...unless you consider all electric vehicles, and CNG powered vehicles competition...there aren't enough alternative powered vehicles or their resources available as of yet to even come close to competing with the oil industry, and until this happens, consumers will be at the mercy of big oil...no competition means THEY dictate prices....
I think more likely the government Federal and State has no competition to tax us for what ever personal projects they want, no matter how worthless. They want to spend our money on what they want, not what's good for the general tax paying population. Decades of tax dollars have been "deposited" into the transportation fund only to be spend in the general fund. It's only to get worse.
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
What are you saying here?
If you mean that only oil producers produce oil, only oil refiners produce products for resale and only fuel retailers sell gasoline and diesel to end users, then you're right.
You could apply the same logic to any other industry in the world and arrive at the same conclusion.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the oil industry, which produces gasoline and diesel fuels has no competition...unless you consider all electric vehicles, and CNG powered vehicles competition...there aren't enough alternative powered vehicles or their resources available as of yet to even come close to competing with the oil industry, and until this happens, consumers will be at the mercy of big oil...no competition means THEY dictate prices....
I think more likely the government Federal and State has no competition to tax us for what ever personal projects they want, no matter how worthless. They want to spend our money on what they want, not what's good for the general tax paying population. Decades of tax dollars have been "deposited" into the transportation fund only to be spend in the general fund. It's only to get worse.
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
I think more likely the government Federal and State has no competition to tax us for what ever personal projects they want, no matter how worthless. They want to spend our money on what they want, not what's good for the general tax paying population. Decades of tax dollars have been "deposited" into the transportation fund only to be spend in the general fund. It's only to get worse.
Whimsey
What? No.
http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pay-only-third-state-local-road-spending
I think more likely the government Federal and State has no competition to tax us for what ever personal projects they want, no matter how worthless. They want to spend our money on what they want, not what's good for the general tax paying population. Decades of tax dollars have been "deposited" into the transportation fund only to be spend in the general fund. It's only to get worse.
Whimsey
What? No.
http://taxfoundation.org/article/gasoline-taxes-and-tolls-pay-only-third-state-local-road-spending
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
California gasoline excise tax actually is 36 cents a gallon, but the state charges sale tax of 7% on top of wholesale price + Federal gas tax + state gas tax, local(Orange County) add 1% sale tax so the total gasoline sale tax is 8%. As of today I think we pay 25-26 cents state sale tax on top of 36 cents excise tax, the state of California take in as much as 60-62 cents per gallon of gas. When gas price was above $4.50 couple years ago the state of California took in more than 70 cents for every gallon of gas.
The list above is just various states excise tax.
And yet despite collecting more taxes on gas than anyone else in the country along with registration fee's road maintenance is well below standard.
California gasoline excise tax actually is 36 cents a gallon, but the state charges sale tax of 7% on top of wholesale price + Federal gas tax + state gas tax, local(Orange County) add 1% sale tax so the total gasoline sale tax is 8%. As of today I think we pay 25-26 cents state sale tax on top of 36 cents excise tax, the state of California take in as much as 60-62 cents per gallon of gas. When gas price was above $4.50 couple years ago the state of California took in more than 70 cents for every gallon of gas.
The list above is just various states excise tax.
And yet despite collecting more taxes on gas than anyone else in the country along with registration fee's road maintenance is well below standard.
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
]
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the oil industry, which produces gasoline and diesel fuels has no competition...unless you consider all electric vehicles, and CNG powered vehicles competition...there aren't enough alternative powered vehicles or their resources available as of yet to even come close to competing with the oil industry, and until this happens, consumers will be at the mercy of big oil...no competition means THEY dictate prices....
Well you could say that about the auto industry..they make cars that people need. Steel mills make steel that people need. There is really not a very good substitute for a free market with the consumer deciding on how much money he is going to spend his money on. All the foods we eat are priced on the commitities market. And reallty the "Spot Market" prices a very, very small percentage of any commitity. But it helps fix the price.
The comodities markets have functioned well for the last 63 years. BTW before WWI Standard Oil more or less had everyone by the throat. Public pressure spurred the Government to act and anti trust laws were born...and..they still exist. So there are "Safeguards"
During WWII of course everything was rationed. People did without. The fact that Mom can't take little Johnny to soccer practice is not the end of the world. I think in general folks in this country have a difficult time doing without "anything".
]
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the oil industry, which produces gasoline and diesel fuels has no competition...unless you consider all electric vehicles, and CNG powered vehicles competition...there aren't enough alternative powered vehicles or their resources available as of yet to even come close to competing with the oil industry, and until this happens, consumers will be at the mercy of big oil...no competition means THEY dictate prices....
Well you could say that about the auto industry..they make cars that people need. Steel mills make steel that people need. There is really not a very good substitute for a free market with the consumer deciding on how much money he is going to spend his money on. All the foods we eat are priced on the commitities market. And reallty the "Spot Market" prices a very, very small percentage of any commitity. But it helps fix the price.
The comodities markets have functioned well for the last 63 years. BTW before WWI Standard Oil more or less had everyone by the throat. Public pressure spurred the Government to act and anti trust laws were born...and..they still exist. So there are "Safeguards"
During WWII of course everything was rationed. People did without. The fact that Mom can't take little Johnny to soccer practice is not the end of the world. I think in general folks in this country have a difficult time doing without "anything".
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Similarly, are you stating that the auto industry has no competition, unless you consider public transit, bicycles, and feet?
Poor example...vehicle prices are not strictly controlled throughout the industry like gas/oil prices are...and you can't buy used gas or oil...
Similarly, are you stating that the auto industry has no competition, unless you consider public transit, bicycles, and feet?
Poor example...vehicle prices are not strictly controlled throughout the industry like gas/oil prices are...and you can't buy used gas or oil...
There is a lot more competition within the fuel industry than you give them credit for, even in a place like here where fuel prices seem to change in lockstep. And yes, vehicle prices are rather strictly controlled by the market. An $80,000 Caprice wouldn't have competed well against an identically equipped $20,000 Crown Vic, now would it?
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