What about chain lube?

[Jaybird]

truck,
What I was after was how does a person decide that their lube is doing the job well enough for them to tout the product? Statements like: "My lube seems to be doing a good job".
What are they basing this on?

I would like to comment on your post though...
When we monitor a chain, the only thing we can do, other than look at it to see if there are any physical signs of misalignment or other damage, is to measure it. We have to measure to know how much elongation from wear there is. Once a chain reaches between 2-3% of it's original pitch, it will start to deform the sprokcet teeth.
If we measure and know at what percent of growth our chain is, then we can remove it when it reaches ~1.5-2% and the sprockets will be fine to use with a new chain. Let it go past that, and you will be buying the whole set.

On kinking...
If you have a standard roller chain that is kinking, it has been greatly neglected. It takes a lot of oxidation and grunge to cause a standard chain to kink. If you follow a good maint. schedule, you should never see your standard chain kink.
Ring chains are a different matter. Once a ring has torn or been damaged in some way, it can allow water and contamination past the ring. This will cause the oxidation internally, even with a good cleaning and re-lube schedule.

Also...if you need to loosen your adjusters to have enough slack to check for a kinking chain, you are probably too tight to begin with.
One of the biggest problems I see folks having with chains is not adjusting them properly.
I have done an extensive write-up on proper maintenance of chains and sprockets here:
http://www.best-motorcycle-chain-lube.com/chain_maintenance.htm#chain-maintenance-top

 

[1sttruck]

Another problem with oring chains is that you can't get lube past the orings. If the maker used a high tack / low bleed grease and you don't redistribute some of it by exercising the links once in awhile, it gets dry in the loaded area. I never had problems with rollers as I usually had a dirty rear wheel from all of the lube, but the chains would get to point where they wouldn't unkink. A non-oring chain would have allowed some lubing.

 

[badnews]

quote:

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Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Another problem with oring chains is that you can't get lube past the orings. If the maker used a high tack / low bleed grease and you don't redistribute some of it by exercising the links once in awhile, it gets dry in the loaded area. I never had problems with rollers as I usually had a dirty rear wheel from all of the lube, but the chains would get to point where they wouldn't unkink. A non-oring chain would have allowed some lubing.

---

You lube the O ring chains when they are hot or warm, as they cool lube is sucked into the o ring area.

 

[sjlee]

I was under the impression that the only reason to lube O-ring chains is to keep them from rusting, and the lubrication in the O-rings is supposed to work for the life of the chain.

I would not think that monitoring chain and sprocket wear is a good indicator on how well a chain is being lubed. Chain and sprocket wear is a more a factor of riding style and how abusive you are to the bike (e.g. wheelies, burnouts, etc.). I would think that if the chain isn't rusting that you're doing a good job of keeping it lubed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of this.

 

[maize]

quote:

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Originally posted by sjlee:
I would not think that monitoring chain and sprocket wear is a good indicator on how well a chain is being lubed. Chain and sprocket wear is a more a factor of riding style and how abusive you are to the bike (e.g. wheelies, burnouts, etc.). I would think that if the chain isn't rusting that you're doing a good job of keeping it lubed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with any of this.

---

i agree that the purpose of lubing an o-ring chain is to maintain the outside of the chain, not inside the rollers. but it's my impression that a poorly maintained chain will still wear faster. dry, dirty chains will allow the outer part of the o-rings to deteriorate. rust and dirt, even if the inside rollers are still lubed, still allows grinding of harsh materials between chain and sprockets. that usually means wear.

i've been a wd-40 man myself, simply because i feel that most chain lubes create too much goopy build up, which holds dirt. cleaning this goop off the chain and especially around the counter shaft is a big effing PITA after a few thousand miles or so. the wd-40 on a regular basis (wiped off after application) seems to keep everything pretty clean. for those that say it might eat o-rings - soak an o-ring in wd-40 and let me know when it starts to disintegrate. my only concern about the wd-40 is that it might penetrate the o-ring and dilute the grease. but i can't imagine it would be any worse in that regard than kerosene, which is what manufacturers recommend for cleaning. and the best part is, the little wd-40 cans fit so easily under the seat!

i've got about 18k on my stock chain on my fz1, putting over 130hp to the ground and hauling a gross weight of at least 700lbs. the chain has no rust or tight spots and sits snuggly on the rear sprocket, which shows no real wear. however the counter shaft sprocket is pretty worn now and it's time for a new set front to back. the wd-40 seems to have done a good job, but i think i'm going to switch to using heavy engine oil - apply and wipe off once a week or every 400 miles - and see how that does.

anyway, 18k on a chain ain't bad.

i'm also considering going from a 530 chain to a 525. 520 conversions seem like a bad idea to me on a liter bike, but RK's top rated 525 (gb525gxw) indicates a rating up to 1100cc with a decent tensile strength (relative to what i can find for other 530's). the "X-ring" design is supposed to be a great improvement over conventional o-rings, providing longer chain life. all that and lighter unsprung weight too - nearly half a pound just in the chain, maybe another pound in the sprockets. of course, they're about $20 - $50 more too.

 

[1sttruck]

http://www.dansmc.com/rearchain.htm

Now, I know what you are going to say. "I've got an O-Ring Chain. The ad said I don't have to lube it !" Well, How do you define "Lube" ? The picture to the left is of an O-Ring chain I took off a customers bike. Believe it or not, this is not the worst I've seen. One customer brought in an O-Ringed chained bike(XR200R Honda) and I could barely push it into the shop. You can't tell me that's not soaking up some horse power. The moral of the tale is this. Lube your chain even if it's an O-Ring chain. Just to complicate things, make sure the lube is OK for O-Ring chains.

http://www.didchain.com/question.html

Question
4. Does my D.I.D X-Ring or O-Ring chain require lubrication?

Answer
Your chain's X-Ring or O-Ring holds special D.I.D V Grease between the pins and the bushings only. Your X-Ring or O-Ring chain does require lubrication between the bushings and the rollers to help extend their life. In addition, your X-Ring or O-Ring chain also requires external lubrication to protect against ozone damage and to extend the life of the chain's X-Ring or O-Ring

 

[Jaybird]

Yes, ring chains have a finite lifespan since you cannot replentish the lube in the pin/bushing area. If the chain is intact, it will NOT suck up cold lube. (I liked that one though...lol)

When the oil seeps from the soap in the sealed in area, there will eventually be wear at the friction area, but this will not usually cause the chain to kink up. The kinking usually happens once a ring has become violated and moisture enters and oxidizes the metals.
Some chain mfgs are injecting oil at build instead of a thicker grease.

sjlee,
There is no lube provided to the roller/bushing area. This you must lube. The roller/sprocket tooth face needs lube as well.
Also you need to lube so the rings will stay supple. I imagine some have good luck with WD-40 since it contains silicone and that is great for feeding o-rings.

 

[blano]

I have found that a lubed x-ring chain will outlast a non ring chain by a very large margin. Of course I ride a cr 500 af in mostly sand so no chain lasts a real long time. IMO non ring chains are fine provided you take the time to clean, and lube after each ride. Most people dont do this though and as a result ring chains are much better. I have seen ring chains last a long time lubed with just wd-40, which is a really poor lubricant.

 

[Uneasy Rider]

Maxima chain wax every 600 miles. 2000 Yamaha R1, DID X ring chain. I got 20k miles on my stock chain.

 

[Jaybird]

There is virtually no difference in the longevity of an O-ring chain compared to an X-ring chain. There is only so much volume available for injected lubricant. The differing ring profiles only present different flex friction and possibly a different sealing property.

However, there is a difference in longevity between the ring chain and the non-ring chain.
Conventional wisdom dictates that the "supposedly" low maintenance ring chain will far outlast the non-ring.
And for the reasons blano stated, this would be true. Folks do not like to pull proper maintenance on chain drives. Hard for me to figure out the guy who will spend mucho bucks on a V&H pipe looking for .5 HP, and will meticulously torque each bolt of the motor, but will completely neglect the chain drive.

If proper care is given to both ring and non ring chains, the ring chain will fall south at a given point in time. There is ony so much lubricant to be consumed behind the seals. Once it is consumed, there is no way to replentish it, and the chain is on a fast downhill slide, taking the sprockets with it.

The non-ring, on the other hand, can continue to be lubed past that point in time. It can remain in service until you reach a point of 2-3% elongation from new.
With good care, the time between 1% and 3% stretch of a non-ring chain can be quite a good lone time. The ring chain that has reached 1% has probably consumed the internal lubricant and will be heading for 3% by leaps and bounds, and is destined for failure very soon.

All that being said, lube choice is almost important as maintenance schedule, as some popular lubes actually help to kill a chain drive. Any lube that is full of tackifier will eat a drive fast in conditions that blano rides in.

 

[maize]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaybird:
There is virtually no difference in the longevity of an O-ring chain compared to an X-ring chain. There is only so much volume available for injected lubricant. The differing ring profiles only present different flex friction and possibly a different sealing property.

---

certainly the purpose behind a better seal is to do a better job of keeping lube in and contaminants out...

... and if successful that should keep the chain happy and healthy for a longer period. otherwise why change the design of the seal?

 

[Mackelroy]

The xring design was for less friction, smaller sealing points versus 1 big fat one.

My experience, there's virtual no difference with longevity. They both wear out.

 

[maize]

of course they both wear, however;

http://www.rk-excel.co.jp/english/tech1.htm

and;

http://www.didchain.com/question.html

 

[Mackelroy]

((of course they both wear, however)

I'll elaborate,

I've seen no improvement on longevity with oring versus xring, they both last about the same from my experience.

Actually the oring I'm running right now, is going to far outdo my last xring. But its heavier chain plating, more improtant than some little ridges on the rubber ring.IMO

thus far with the results I'm seeing

 

[maize]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mackelroy:
Actually the oring I'm running right now, is going to far outdo my last xring. But its heavier chain plating, more improtant than some little ridges on the rubber ring.IMO

thus far with the results I'm seeing

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so perhaps in these few intances there are other factors than simply the ring? for example, your o-ring chain has heavier plating? i guess i'd be interested in a lighter chain that got similar wear.

anyway, maybe it's all ad hype but the purpose behind the design of the x-ring is, among other things, to increase the life of the chain by keeping the innards fresher, longer. this was the purpose behind the o-ring in the first place. i understand you haven't had good results with all the chains you've used, but the improved design still seems like a sound idea to me. i guess i'll know better after another 18k miles.

 

[ElectroKen]

I really like this Amsoil MPHD product:

Amsoil MPHD

It stays on the chain better than anything else I've tried and provides great corrosion protection. I use it on motorcycle and bicycle chains. It's only $6 for a 16 oz. can.

Nobody should assume that I'm one of the Amsoil freaks, because I'm not. I despise the way they do business but I do like the performance of many of their products.

 

[Jaybird]

I've used and sold these chains for years, and there is no difference in longevity that can be attributed to the design alone.

All things being equal, but the ring profile, the xring and oring should last the exact amount of hours. THey are the same animal with two different profile rings. The same area at the friction point exists on both.

Longevity of a ring chain, no matter the profile, is dependant on the care one gives it, and luck.
If you are a dirt rider, luck plays quite a roll. It ony takes a small trail hazzard to ruin a ring chain.
Being crossed up in a big rut, and powering out like a bull on steroids, can easily see the chain rings being trashed by maybe a little slate at the edge of the rut.
Even a small twig flying up could tear a ring.
Once a ring(s) is violated, it is only a matter of time befire the chain sees trouble it can't recover from.

Like all things in the marketing world, one must weigh out their options and not believe all the hype the mfg throws on you.
Expecially chain longevity graphs.
These graphs were obtained using controlled environment testing that no rider, street or trail, could duplicate.
And when ANY mfg tells you that ANY chain is maint. free... they either don't know what they are talking about, or they hope you don't.
Most likely the latter.

And BTW...ring chains were desinged to be used in heavy contaminant areas of industry.
They were not initially designed to make a chain maint. free, or even lessen the maint, for that matter.
A sense of lesser maintenance does drive sales of these chains in the biking world though.

 

[maize]

it's a good thing i don't ride in the dirt then. i guess that means my chains should last longer. i don't have a thing to say about dirt chains.

anyway, i think you've mis-understood a point. i don't remember saying anything about maintenance-free anything. in fact, i don't remember anyone else suggesting x-rings don't need maintenance. certainly not the manufacturers, no matter what they may think of me.

a better seal is a better seal, designed to do a better job of what the O-RING was there to do in the first place. the issue, as i see it, is not that there is a limited volume of lube inside the rings, but that one ring is meant to do a better job of preserving that lube. it stands to reason that if the lube lasts longer, that point at which the chains starts going south will be delayed. this may not prove to be the case, or it may not prove to be the case in every application. but there is a simple premise at work -- if o-rings are good, better o-rings are better.

if you get as many miles out of a conventional (no-rings) chain, especially in the dirt, god bless you. i'm sure that saves you a fair amount of money. but nowadays ring chains are pretty standard for almost any street bike. rings are designed, among other things, to extend the life of a chain. "better" rings have been designed to do this job even better. this point has been disputed here but i believe has been clarified. like i said, if you can make a conventional chain last just as long, more power to you big guy.

 

[maize]

oops

 

[Mackelroy]

non orings are lousy in the dirt on longeity, typically I get maybe 20 hours out of non oring on 250's maybe couple months on 125's,but oring I usually get 200+ hours.

My cr 500, stretched a stock non oring chain completely out of spec in 1 day and was srating to eat sprockets. Next day it was running oring

Orings are definitely the way, I've ran more than a dosen orings , but the 2 xrings I've ran perform like a standard oring IMO as far as longevity..

Now as for street, on my 400 motard first 2 xrings one broke at 9,000 miles the other was replaced and 14,000 completely worn out. I did try one non oring on this bike for street ,it lasted about 1500 miles.

A much heavier chain I'm running now has about 8000 miles and holding up well, and will exceed longevity in comparison to anything I've ran on this bike
It's an oring, just a much heavier chain , but if it had the little ridgge orings it would be fine.