Water pump lubricant additives, any benefit?

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Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Doesn't the water pump have a sealed bearing?

Lubricating the seal is the issue - not the bearing.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
They rub against each other, and are lubricated by a tiny film of water/coolant between the faces...that's all they need.

Therefore, it's logical to conclude that anything improving the lubricity of that "tiny film" will contribute to longer seal life.


You might as well spray WD40 on sealed hub hub bearing seals to give them a little extra lube.
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Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype

Therefore, it's logical to conclude that anything improving the lubricity of that "tiny film" will contribute to longer seal life.


It's "logical"...how ?

We get 40-50,000 hours out of the industrial ones on nothing but water.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
We get 40-50,000 hours out of the industrial ones on nothing but water.

Comparing apples with oranges now, are we?
 
No,
hard faced mechanical seals that are lubricated by the tiny release of water across the seal faces ... with ... hard faced mechanical seals that are lubricated by the tiny release of water (and glycol usually).

You still haven't explained how one could "naturally conclude" that something that doesn't need extra lubrication actually DOES need it.
 
So, maybe the car seal has really thin skin like an apple and the industrial seal has alot thicker skin like and orange?

You do know there are a plethora of different types of seals like thos of which you speak, right?
 
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
So, maybe the car seal has really thin skin like an apple and the industrial seal has alot thicker skin like and orange?

You do know there are a plethora of different types of seals like thos of which you speak, right?


The moment water and glycol get into a water pump bearing (extra lube or no extra lube) it begins to deteriorate the bearing. The grease from the bearing side of the seal is what lubricates the seal, if indeed any seal lubrication is needed.
 
Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
All this 'sealed' talk!

My unopened can of 'sealed' soda sure deposits alot of water on my desk as it warms.


None of which comes from the contents of the can.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
We get 40-50,000 hours out of the industrial ones on nothing but water.

Maybe you can explain how the pump seal on my truck only got 2,700 hours? Look, I don't give a rat's petootie if people like water Wetter or Whatever. Moving parts sliding against each other create friction. It's pretty simple, really. You'll get no more responses from me. FYI, you are pretty close to becoming a member of my ignore list. Keep it up.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
Maybe you can explain how the pump seal on my truck only got 2,700 hours? Look, I don't give a rat's petootie if people like water Wetter or Whatever. Moving parts sliding against each other create friction. It's pretty simple, really. You'll get no more responses from me. FYI, you are pretty close to becoming a member of my ignore list. Keep it up.
wink.gif



2700 hours? If that is under its design lifetime then it is either water ingress into the bearing (due to a faulty seal or a bent shaft), or poor bearing or seal design or poor construction. Or it was somehow damaged during manufacture or during installation.

Oh and as far as I've seen, people who threaten to ignore people are usually doing so because they take positions that cannot be defended and do not wish to hear anything to the contrary.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Oh and as far as I've seen, people who threaten to ignore people are usually doing so because they take positions that cannot be defended and do not wish to hear anything to the contrary.

It's not a threat. I just don't have time for DFIs.

http://stuff.is-a-geek.net/random/****-From_The_Internet.png
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Uber, do you have any idea what Shannow does for a living? Meanwhile, I'm going to go lecture Mola on how to formulate gear oil....

No, why? Couldn't possibly care less, really. Maybe he should spend more time wearing out water pumps instead of pontificating about his 10k-hour seals which are almost totally irrelevant to the topic of automotive water pump seals. Then we probably wouldn't be having this misunderstanding.

As for mister molacule, enjoy.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
2700 hours? If that is under its design lifetime then it is either water ingress into the bearing (due to a faulty seal or a bent shaft), or poor bearing or seal design or poor construction. Or it was somehow damaged during manufacture or during installation.

Just to put things in perspective, that 2,700 hours represents 100,000 miles on the truck and is pretty typical for automotive water pump life expectancy. But Shannon says it could be waaaaay more - and I agree!
wink.gif


Most people are unaware of coolant additives for their cars. Most water pumps fail somewhere in an acceptable amount of mileage that is, according to the so-called experts around here FAR less than what similar sealing technology can go for. Why is that?

As you were...
 
OK, the comparison I made is valid...industrial seals are identical materials, much higher operating pressure sand surface speeds, and last just fine on plain old water.

There's no reason for water pumps to need anything more.

Coolant is slippery (banned on track days)...so surely it's "lubricating more" in your view...possibly.

If a water pump lubricant WAS needed it would be in coolants, and part of OEM specs...do the OEMs add one ? .... either answer makes a lubricating additive not needed...

Failure modes include solid contaminants (corrosion products, silica out of solution, and Al oxides)...a lubricant won't stop that, partical sizes are greater than film thicknesses, and destroy rubbing faces.
 
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
No, why? Couldn't possibly care less, really.

Because I'm sure swallowing your foot and leg whole wouldn't be a pleasant experience, and I'm simply trying to save you from that. But, have at it.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
No, why? Couldn't possibly care less, really.

Because I'm sure swallowing your foot and leg whole wouldn't be a pleasant experience, and I'm simply trying to save you from that. But, have at it.


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BITOG is a great site! I'm learning so much great information, plus the occasional bit of entertainment too.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
If a water pump lubricant WAS needed...

I never said it was "needed." My contention is they can extend the life of a pump seal beyond what is typically seen in the automotive environment. You said it was "not needed." Certianly not, if you are happy with premature water pump seal failure. I am waiting to hear your explanation as to why coolant conditioners are not beneficial, in the context of obviously contradicting evidence.

The only difference in the auto and industrial seals, so you claim, is the industrial seals run on plain water. Yet automotive seals run with "slippery" glycols and somehow manage only a small fraction of the life expectancy of their industrial counterparts. Are you SURE there's no other differences? Heat cycles? Start-stop cycles? Contamination? Huh. No difference.

Something doesn't add up. Do you think maybe there's more to it? I do, and I can confirm my hypothesis with my own experience, same as you. The 45-YEAR-OLD-FACTORY-ORIGINAL-WATER-PUMP on my Chrysler TnT has run on coolant conditioners with added lubricants since early in it's life

Hmmm. Lots of unexplained and missing information here...
 
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
The only difference in the auto and industrial seals, so you claim, is the industrial seals run on plain water. Yet automotive seals run with "slippery" glycols and somehow manage only a small fraction of the life expectancy of their industrial counterparts. Are you SURE there's no other differences? Heat cycles? Start-stop cycles? Contamination? Huh. No difference.


Per my previous post...before yours...

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Failure modes include solid contaminants (corrosion products, silica out of solution, and Al oxides)...a lubricant won't stop that, partical sizes are greater than film thicknesses, and destroy rubbing faces.


Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
Something doesn't add up. Do you think maybe there's more to it? I do, and I can confirm my hypothesis with my own experience, same as you. The 45-YEAR-OLD-FACTORY-ORIGINAL-WATER-PUMP on my Chrysler TnT has run on coolant conditioners with added lubricants since early in it's life

Hmmm. Lots of unexplained and missing information here...


How is one 45 year old water pump "verifying your hypotheses" that water pump lubricants caused it.

Look at a little bit of reliability analysis (they are actual tested theories and hypotheses, not random one off's), and you'll see that failure rates in any component are variable.

Your grandmother's fridge that lasted 40 years didn't do so because of the brand of soda that she kept in it.
 
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