War in Ukraine

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Originally Posted By: Mystic
I am not worried about the 'Elites' in Ukraine. I am worried about the Russians.


Worried which way for or against.
 
Obviously I have worried about what the Russians are going to do. They and the 'rebels' are the aggressors.
 
I don't know if this is wildly known, but I found out last night that Russia was leasing Sevastopol harbor city from Ukraine till 2017 (signed in 1997 for 20 years). If Ukraine decided not to extend the lease, Russia would be cut off from the Black Sea.

Looks like instead of negotiations, they took it by force. Since the Crimean annexation went without a glitch, they decided to reach further to eastern Ukraine. If they are not stopped now, history teaches up they will reach further and further.

The sad part is no one will stop them. Ukrainian military is to weak to fight all out war. Germany is too concerned about getting russian gas and french are too concerned about selling ships to russia and making some coin. US will not start a war with a nuclear superpower.

It's a basket case and Ukrainians are screwed. Russian neighbors were always screwed throughout the history.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
If there is any doubt. Read the "Ukraine Separatist" websites. The goal is a new Russian province now known as Ukraine.


Historically Ukraine has essentially always been a Russian province for all intensive purposes.
 
Historically essentially you are living on the ancestral land of my people.

Do I have the right to invade your home with a mob at gun point and subject you to my rule as I see fit?
 
I like history but I don't know the complete history of Ukraine but I think what he says is not really accurate anyway. Russia has been an expansive state for a long time. And according to my understanding the Soviet Union killed large numbers of Ukrainian people and took over the country.

There are ethnic Russians in some parts of the country, especially in the eastern part of the country. But the people in much of the rest of the country do not even speak the same language as the Russians and have a different culture. I recently talked to a guy from Czech Republic who knows a lot about the history of this region. I also talked recently to a woman who is a foreign exchange student living here in the US. She is from this region also and she told me a lot about that region of the world.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: dave1251
If there is any doubt. Read the "Ukraine Separatist" websites. The goal is a new Russian province now known as Ukraine.


Historically Ukraine has essentially always been a Russian province for all intensive purposes.


No, it was a Polish province before that. After the WW2, Poles were resettled (as per the Yalta agreement), meaning forcefully removed and Russians brought instead. But to this day, western Ukraine has a lot polish cultural influences (Lvov was a Polish city with Polish majority) and remains pro-western while the eastern part is pro-Russian, being ethnically purely Russian (duh).

They will eventually break up after a bloody war (that is happening right now). We had that in Yugoslavia, and more recently in Georgia.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Historically essentially you are living on the ancestral land of my people.

Do I have the right to invade your home with a mob at gun point and subject you to my rule as I see fit?


Same scenario as Palestine isn't it ?
whistle.gif


Ashkanazi Khazars (who call themselves jews) who never set foot in the Holy Land until the 1930's when terrorists named Menachem Begin, and Gloda Meir headed up zionist terrorist groups and decided to murder the native semitic peoples and take over their land.

Do I like this fact, no. Is it historically accurate? Absolutely.

Unfortunately the Ukrainian people have always been under the rule of others for a looooong time now. Left to their own devices they could not even handle their own affairs.

Lets make a deal, if the invading Khazars leave Palestine and return to Khazakhstan, the Russians will leave the Ukraine. OK?
grin.gif
 
Theres no setting up of Putin, and if anybody attempted to 'attack' Russia - it would be an all-out bloodbath, the scope of which the US has no stomach for. We can't even launch a real ground war in the middle east to win once and for all, there's no way in [censored] we have a chance against Russia. Nobody has waged war with Russia and lived to tell about it in over 1000 years. That isn't going to change now. Putin is too sharp, too quick, and too ruthless, and our POTUS is too weak and too intent on ruining America with his buddies. Putin would sacrifice the lives of tens of thousands of his men (if not more) to beat us - highly unlikely the US would anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Historically essentially you are living on the ancestral land of my people.

Do I have the right to invade your home with a mob at gun point and subject you to my rule as I see fit?


Same scenario as Palestine isn't it ?
whistle.gif


Ashkanazi Khazars (who call themselves jews) who never set foot in the Holy Land until the 1930's when terrorists named Menachem Begin, and Gloda Meir headed up zionist terrorist groups and decided to murder the native semitic peoples and take over their land.

Do I like this fact, no. Is it historically accurate? Absolutely.

Unfortunately the Ukrainian people have always been under the rule of others for a looooong time now. Left to their own devices they could not even handle their own affairs.

Lets make a deal, if the invading Khazars leave Palestine and return to Khazakhstan, the Russians will leave the Ukraine. OK?
grin.gif



Typical antiqueshell response. Side-step and misdirection.

The region were Palestine is was conquered by the Muslim empire in the 7th century. This is not exactly the ancestral home of the current Palestinians either is it. Israel is not invading Palestine to retake Palestine and make it part of an Israeli empire. For the last 9 years the same process happens with Palestine and Israel. Palestine launches unguided rockets into residential neighborhoods. Israel responds with sending troops fighting with Hamas. Once Israel feels secure enough the Israeli army withdraws until tensions rise again.

I propose the next time someone asks you a simple question like provide substantial proof to your claims or in this case a yes or no. If you are unable to answer.
You fly to Moscow the billionaire capital of the world. You go to Saint Basil's Cathedral with a sign with a picture of Putin in a leotard, and a bull horn playing a recording that the Russian government led by Putin is nothing but puppets controlled by former Soviet Hardliners.

If this happened. What do you believe would happen to you?
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Historically essentially you are living on the ancestral land of my people.

Do I have the right to invade your home with a mob at gun point and subject you to my rule as I see fit?


Same scenario as Palestine isn't it ?
whistle.gif


Ashkanazi Khazars (who call themselves jews) who never set foot in the Holy Land until the 1930's when terrorists named Menachem Begin, and Gloda Meir headed up zionist terrorist groups and decided to murder the native semitic peoples and take over their land.

Do I like this fact, no. Is it historically accurate? Absolutely.

Unfortunately the Ukrainian people have always been under the rule of others for a looooong time now. Left to their own devices they could not even handle their own affairs.

Lets make a deal, if the invading Khazars leave Palestine and return to Khazakhstan, the Russians will leave the Ukraine. OK?
grin.gif



Typical antiqueshell response. Side-step and misdirection.

The region were Palestine is was conquered by the Muslim empire in the 7th century. This is not exactly the ancestral home of the current Palestinians either is it. Israel is not invading Palestine to retake Palestine and make it part of an Israeli empire. For the last 9 years the same process happens with Palestine and Israel. Palestine launches unguided rockets into residential neighborhoods. Israel responds with sending troops fighting with Hamas. Once Israel feels secure enough the Israeli army withdraws until tensions rise again.

I propose the next time someone asks you a simple question like provide substantial proof to your claims or in this case a yes or no. If you are unable to answer.
You fly to Moscow the billionaire capital of the world. You go to Saint Basil's Cathedral with a sign with a picture of Putin in a leotard, and a bull horn playing a recording that the Russian government led by Putin is nothing but puppets controlled by former Soviet Hardliners.

If this happened. What do you believe would happen to you?


Conflict involves more than rockets....

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-nat...as-fields/11680
 
Originally Posted By: KenO
Theres no setting up of Putin, and if anybody attempted to 'attack' Russia - it would be an all-out bloodbath, the scope of which the US has no stomach for. We can't even launch a real ground war in the middle east to win once and for all, there's no way in [censored] we have a chance against Russia. Nobody has waged war with Russia and lived to tell about it in over 1000 years. That isn't going to change now. Putin is too sharp, too quick, and too ruthless, and our POTUS is too weak and too intent on ruining America with his buddies. Putin would sacrifice the lives of tens of thousands of his men (if not more) to beat us - highly unlikely the US would anymore.


Tens of thousands? Russia lost 28 million people in WWII. IMHO, he'd fight until the bitter end, and, like Stalin, throw as many people at the problem as he could until he either won or had nobody left to throw at it.
 
Originally Posted By: KenO

Nobody has waged war with Russia and lived to tell about it in over 1000 years.


Hyperbole much?

Less than 100 years ago, Poland started a war with Soviet Russia. Not only did they live to tell about it, they won.

Germany's still around. So is Spain, Italy, Finland, France, England, Sweden.....
 
Russian military is decrepit beyond belief. Working equipment, parts and ammo are in short supply. All they have is quantity. No quality at all.

They have a lot of men, and they can attack 3rd world countries with impunity, but we would massacre them in a conventional war, and they know this.

That's what makes them dangerous. They HAVE to use nukes or it's all over for them. When you back an old dog into a corner, it's highly likely he'll bite...
 
We don't really need to contemplate millitary action.
We have powerful economic weapons to deploy.
A serious sanctions regime undertaken by the US would starve Russia even absent any EU cooperation.
The US might suffer a few cuts and bruises, but Russia would be gutshot.
 
Some responses here are truly funny and show just how ignorant the West is of everything outside their realm.

Yeah, let's sanction Russia, this ain't a small island of Cuba
crackmeup2.gif
Besides, who's gonna enforce the sanctions without causing a full out war?

Fact is, Russia was, is and always will be a threat, especially to immediate neighbours and the West will parrot some good intentioned talks, but unless they feel threatened, they will do nothing especially since there is nothing of interest for the West there. Ukraine and its people unfortunately are on their own.
 
If the West has learned anything over the past couple of centuries, it should have learned that it's better to deal with international vermin before they overrun the neighborhood.
To say that we should avoid serious action because it might be difficult is to allow tyranny to reign unchecked.
We've seen this before.
To steal and paraphrase a famous line from Marx, we've seen the tradgedies of the past.
Should we allow them to become the farces of the future?
Russia must be held to the same standards we expect of every other serious nation state.
Western trade and Western capital must not be extended to nations refusing to conform to international norms of behavior.
 
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