Fascinating analysis on that UkraineAtWar site. This is truly what they call "open source intelligence".
War in Ukraine
- Thread starter friendly_jacek
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I have to disagree.
The American intelligence presence is there and no doubt gathering very accurate Intel. There is a political agenda here that does not want any U.S. involvement. Also American's as a rule have very short term memories thus a power hungry, lunatic, dictator in Europe with a carbon copy international policy of Adolf Hitler of taking "ethnic Russian" lands via force has no interest to cause an alarm nor concern for most Americans.
The American intelligence presence is there and no doubt gathering very accurate Intel. There is a political agenda here that does not want any U.S. involvement. Also American's as a rule have very short term memories thus a power hungry, lunatic, dictator in Europe with a carbon copy international policy of Adolf Hitler of taking "ethnic Russian" lands via force has no interest to cause an alarm nor concern for most Americans.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
The American intelligence presence is there and no doubt gathering very accurate Intel.
I disagree with this part (agree with the rest). If US/NATO actually provided any assistance with satelite/UAV or other military intelligence, the Ukrainian army (and civilian population) would not be massacred by the Grad (Hail) rocket shelling or recent very effective attacks by the Russian (sorry, meant separatist's) armor forces.
Sadly, Ukrainian forces are no match for well trained (battle trained) Russian ex military "volunteers".
Clearly Russians used their UAV for this type of accuracy for their non-precision Grad ammunition:
The American intelligence presence is there and no doubt gathering very accurate Intel.
I disagree with this part (agree with the rest). If US/NATO actually provided any assistance with satelite/UAV or other military intelligence, the Ukrainian army (and civilian population) would not be massacred by the Grad (Hail) rocket shelling or recent very effective attacks by the Russian (sorry, meant separatist's) armor forces.
Sadly, Ukrainian forces are no match for well trained (battle trained) Russian ex military "volunteers".
Clearly Russians used their UAV for this type of accuracy for their non-precision Grad ammunition:
We can disagree. There was an Russian intelligence presence during the invasion of Iraq.
The Russians provided intel and support to Saddam Hussein. I find the possibility of U.S. intelligence to return the favor to "Mother Russia" to tempting to pass up. Also even with Russian aid the Iraqi Army and Republican Guard was so confused by the coalition onslaught the aid was nearly worthless. I expect the same result with the Ukrainian against Russian forces.
"which some U.S. officials had said were moved out of Iraq prior to the invasion of Iraq with the assistance of Russian military intelligence forces."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010...-view/?page=all
"Russian president Putin publicly announced that something would be done. The Russians certainly have the means. For thirty years, from 1973-2003, Russian agents (from the KGB, then the FSB) worked with the Iraqi government on security matters. Saddam Hussein originally brought the KGB in to help him deal with enemies in Iraq. The KGB gets some of the credit for Saddam surviving dozens of coup and assassination attempts. In return, Saddam shared information he had on terrorist groups. Saddam provided a safe-haven for Arab terrorists (including al Qaeda), partly to protect himself from them, partly to have access to their services. During those three decades of cooperation, some 70,000 Russian military advisors, many of them intelligence and security specialists, served in Iraq. All of this is known from documents captured in Iraq in 2003, and interrogations of Iraqi officials. The Russians denied most of it officially, confirmed some of it privately. Russia and the United States have, since September 11, 2001, been cooperating in the fight against Islamic terrorists. The U.S. knows that the Russians still have a lot of contacts in Iraq, especially among those who served in Saddam's intelligence and security services. Russia has not been sharing a lot of this information."
The Russians provided intel and support to Saddam Hussein. I find the possibility of U.S. intelligence to return the favor to "Mother Russia" to tempting to pass up. Also even with Russian aid the Iraqi Army and Republican Guard was so confused by the coalition onslaught the aid was nearly worthless. I expect the same result with the Ukrainian against Russian forces.
"which some U.S. officials had said were moved out of Iraq prior to the invasion of Iraq with the assistance of Russian military intelligence forces."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010...-view/?page=all
"Russian president Putin publicly announced that something would be done. The Russians certainly have the means. For thirty years, from 1973-2003, Russian agents (from the KGB, then the FSB) worked with the Iraqi government on security matters. Saddam Hussein originally brought the KGB in to help him deal with enemies in Iraq. The KGB gets some of the credit for Saddam surviving dozens of coup and assassination attempts. In return, Saddam shared information he had on terrorist groups. Saddam provided a safe-haven for Arab terrorists (including al Qaeda), partly to protect himself from them, partly to have access to their services. During those three decades of cooperation, some 70,000 Russian military advisors, many of them intelligence and security specialists, served in Iraq. All of this is known from documents captured in Iraq in 2003, and interrogations of Iraqi officials. The Russians denied most of it officially, confirmed some of it privately. Russia and the United States have, since September 11, 2001, been cooperating in the fight against Islamic terrorists. The U.S. knows that the Russians still have a lot of contacts in Iraq, especially among those who served in Saddam's intelligence and security services. Russia has not been sharing a lot of this information."
Also I agree on your assessment. Untrained ragtag rebels are no where near that accurate with light artillery.
To obtain even a comparable accuracy rate with unguided munitions regular Army units would require months upon months of drilling and training.
To obtain even a comparable accuracy rate with unguided munitions regular Army units would require months upon months of drilling and training.
Now they are shooting down planes from their cruising altitude of 10,000 feet. Are they going to say they bought the BUK SAMs at the black market?
How about their newest tanks?
How about their newest tanks?
Right, I meant to say 10,000 meters (~33,000 feet).
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Now they are shooting down planes from their cruising altitude of 10,000 feet. Are they going to say they bought the BUK SAMs at the black market?
How about their newest tanks?
The tanks have been "stolen" from Russian bases. The transported via "stolen" rail and truck.
Now they are shooting down planes from their cruising altitude of 10,000 feet. Are they going to say they bought the BUK SAMs at the black market?
How about their newest tanks?
The tanks have been "stolen" from Russian bases. The transported via "stolen" rail and truck.
Heads up, the Ukraine war is just starting. Russia officially declared "surgical strikes." This must be why 20 civilians died in Lugansk overnight.
This is nothing new as they were shelling Ukraine for a few days now, but now it's official.
https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=uk&tl=en&u=http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/07/18/7032322/
This is nothing new as they were shelling Ukraine for a few days now, but now it's official.
https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=uk&tl=en&u=http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/07/18/7032322/
This can not be. If an Su-34 is shot down Russian's will say it was captured by Ukrainian rebels.
Follow the money...who benefits the most.
The IMF and Global Banksters want to consolidate control of the
Western World.
My guess is that in typical fashion of the elite banking cadres they have attempted to "set up" the Russians, and the sepratists by staging this attack and trying to blame it on them. This is
SOP for these creatures.
You want the culprits? It IS the banking elites.
The IMF and Global Banksters want to consolidate control of the
Western World.
My guess is that in typical fashion of the elite banking cadres they have attempted to "set up" the Russians, and the sepratists by staging this attack and trying to blame it on them. This is
SOP for these creatures.
You want the culprits? It IS the banking elites.
There is a issue with this false conjecture.
Putin has admitted and stated he desires Crimea to part of Russia.
"Everything in Crimea speaks of our shared history and pride. This is the location of ancient Khersones, where Prince Vladimir was baptised. His spiritual feat of adopting Orthodoxy predetermined the overall basis of the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. The graves of Russian soldiers whose bravery brought Crimea into the Russian empire are also in Crimea. This is also Sevastopol – a legendary city with an outstanding history, a fortress that serves as the birthplace of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Crimea is Balaklava and Kerch, Malakhov Kurgan and Sapun Ridge. Each one of these places is dear to our hearts, symbolising Russian military glory and outstanding valour.
Crimea is a unique blend of different peoples’ cultures and traditions. This makes it similar to Russia as a whole, where not a single ethnic group has been lost over the centuries. Russians and Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and people of other ethnic groups have lived side by side in Crimea, retaining their own identity, traditions, languages and faith.
Incidentally, the total population of the Crimean Peninsula today is 2.2 million people, of whom almost 1.5 million are Russians, 350,000 are Ukrainians who predominantly consider Russian their native language, and about 290,000-300,000 are Crimean Tatars, who, as the referendum has shown, also lean towards Russia.
True, there was a time when Crimean Tatars were treated unfairly, just as a number of other peoples in the USSR. There is only one thing I can say here: millions of people of various ethnicities suffered during those repressions, and primarily Russians.
Crimean Tatars returned to their homeland. I believe we should make all the necessary political and legislative decisions to finalise the rehabilitation of Crimean Tatars, restore them in their rights and clear their good name.
We have great respect for people of all the ethnic groups living in Crimea. This is their common home, their motherland, and it would be right – I know the local population supports this – for Crimea to have three equal national languages: Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar.
Colleagues,
In people’s hearts and minds, Crimea has always been an inseparable part of Russia. This firm conviction is based on truth and justice and was passed from generation to generation, over time, under any circumstances, despite all the dramatic changes our country went through during the entire 20th century.
After the revolution, the Bolsheviks, for a number of reasons – may God judge them – added large sections of the historical South of Russia to the Republic of Ukraine. This was done with no consideration for the ethnic make-up of the population, and today these areas form the southeast of Ukraine. Then, in 1954, a decision was made to transfer Crimean Region to Ukraine, along with Sevastopol, despite the fact that it was a federal city. This was the personal initiative of the Communist Party head Nikita Khrushchev. What stood behind this decision of his – a desire to win the support of the Ukrainian political establishment or to atone for the mass repressions of the 1930’s in Ukraine – is for historians to figure out.
What matters now is that this decision was made in clear violation of the constitutional norms that were in place even then. The decision was made behind the scenes. Naturally, in a totalitarian state nobody bothered to ask the citizens of Crimea and Sevastopol. They were faced with the fact. People, of course, wondered why all of a sudden Crimea became part of Ukraine. But on the whole – and we must state this clearly, we all know it – this decision was treated as a formality of sorts because the territory was transferred within the boundaries of a single state. Back then, it was impossible to imagine that Ukraine and Russia may split up and become two separate states. However, this has happened.
Unfortunately, what seemed impossible became a reality. The USSR fell apart. Things developed so swiftly that few people realised how truly dramatic those events and their consequences would be. Many people both in Russia and in Ukraine, as well as in other republics hoped that the Commonwealth of Independent States that was created at the time would become the new common form of statehood. They were told that there would be a single currency, a single economic space, joint armed forces; however, all this remained empty promises, while the big country was gone. It was only when Crimea ended up as part of a different country that Russia realised that it was not simply robbed, it was plundered.
At the same time, we have to admit that by launching the sovereignty parade Russia itself aided in the collapse of the Soviet Union. And as this collapse was legalised, everyone forgot about Crimea and Sevastopol – the main base of the Black Sea Fleet. Millions of people went to bed in one country and awoke in different ones, overnight becoming ethnic minorities in former Union republics, while the Russian nation became one of the biggest, if not the biggest ethnic group in the world to be divided by borders.
Now, many years later, I heard residents of Crimea say that back in 1991 they were handed over like a sack of potatoes. This is hard to disagree with. And what about the Russian state? What about Russia? It humbly accepted the situation. This country was going through such hard times then that realistically it was incapable of protecting its interests. However, the people could not reconcile themselves to this outrageous historical injustice. All these years, citizens and many public figures came back to this issue, saying that Crimea is historically Russian land and Sevastopol is a Russian city. Yes, we all knew this in our hearts and minds, but we had to proceed from the existing reality and build our good-neighbourly relations with independent Ukraine on a new basis. Meanwhile, our relations with Ukraine, with the fraternal Ukrainian people have always been and will remain of foremost importance for us.
Today we can speak about it openly, and I would like to share with you some details of the negotiations that took place in the early 2000s. The then President of Ukraine Mr Kuchma asked me to expedite the process of delimiting the Russian-Ukrainian border. At that time, the process was practically at a standstill. Russia seemed to have recognised Crimea as part of Ukraine, but there were no negotiations on delimiting the borders. Despite the complexity of the situation, I immediately issued instructions to Russian government agencies to speed up their work to document the borders, so that everyone had a clear understanding that by agreeing to delimit the border we admitted de facto and de jure that Crimea was Ukrainian territory, thereby closing the issue.
We accommodated Ukraine not only regarding Crimea, but also on such a complicated matter as the maritime boundary in the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait. What we proceeded from back then was that good relations with Ukraine matter most for us and they should not fall hostage to deadlock territorial disputes. However, we expected Ukraine to remain our good neighbour, we hoped that Russian citizens and Russian speakers in Ukraine, especially its southeast and Crimea, would live in a friendly, democratic and civilised state that would protect their rights in line with the norms of international law.
However, this is not how the situation developed. Time and time again attempts were made to deprive Russians of their historical memory, even of their language and to subject them to forced assimilation. Moreover, Russians, just as other citizens of Ukraine are suffering from the constant political and state crisis that has been rocking the country for over 20 years.
I understand why Ukrainian people wanted change. They have had enough of the authorities in power during the years of Ukraine’s independence. Presidents, prime ministers and parliamentarians changed, but their attitude to the country and its people remained the same. They milked the country, fought among themselves for power, assets and cash flows and did not care much about the ordinary people. They did not wonder why it was that millions of Ukrainian citizens saw no prospects at home and went to other countries to work as day labourers. I would like to stress this: it was not some Silicon Valley they fled to, but to become day labourers. Last year alone almost 3 million people found such jobs in Russia. According to some sources, in 2013 their earnings in Russia totalled over $20 billion, which is about 12% of Ukraine’s GDP."
Before you can say "conspiracy". This excerpt of Putin's speech is sourced directly from the Kremlin.
http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889
Putin has admitted and stated he desires Crimea to part of Russia.
"Everything in Crimea speaks of our shared history and pride. This is the location of ancient Khersones, where Prince Vladimir was baptised. His spiritual feat of adopting Orthodoxy predetermined the overall basis of the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. The graves of Russian soldiers whose bravery brought Crimea into the Russian empire are also in Crimea. This is also Sevastopol – a legendary city with an outstanding history, a fortress that serves as the birthplace of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Crimea is Balaklava and Kerch, Malakhov Kurgan and Sapun Ridge. Each one of these places is dear to our hearts, symbolising Russian military glory and outstanding valour.
Crimea is a unique blend of different peoples’ cultures and traditions. This makes it similar to Russia as a whole, where not a single ethnic group has been lost over the centuries. Russians and Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and people of other ethnic groups have lived side by side in Crimea, retaining their own identity, traditions, languages and faith.
Incidentally, the total population of the Crimean Peninsula today is 2.2 million people, of whom almost 1.5 million are Russians, 350,000 are Ukrainians who predominantly consider Russian their native language, and about 290,000-300,000 are Crimean Tatars, who, as the referendum has shown, also lean towards Russia.
True, there was a time when Crimean Tatars were treated unfairly, just as a number of other peoples in the USSR. There is only one thing I can say here: millions of people of various ethnicities suffered during those repressions, and primarily Russians.
Crimean Tatars returned to their homeland. I believe we should make all the necessary political and legislative decisions to finalise the rehabilitation of Crimean Tatars, restore them in their rights and clear their good name.
We have great respect for people of all the ethnic groups living in Crimea. This is their common home, their motherland, and it would be right – I know the local population supports this – for Crimea to have three equal national languages: Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar.
Colleagues,
In people’s hearts and minds, Crimea has always been an inseparable part of Russia. This firm conviction is based on truth and justice and was passed from generation to generation, over time, under any circumstances, despite all the dramatic changes our country went through during the entire 20th century.
After the revolution, the Bolsheviks, for a number of reasons – may God judge them – added large sections of the historical South of Russia to the Republic of Ukraine. This was done with no consideration for the ethnic make-up of the population, and today these areas form the southeast of Ukraine. Then, in 1954, a decision was made to transfer Crimean Region to Ukraine, along with Sevastopol, despite the fact that it was a federal city. This was the personal initiative of the Communist Party head Nikita Khrushchev. What stood behind this decision of his – a desire to win the support of the Ukrainian political establishment or to atone for the mass repressions of the 1930’s in Ukraine – is for historians to figure out.
What matters now is that this decision was made in clear violation of the constitutional norms that were in place even then. The decision was made behind the scenes. Naturally, in a totalitarian state nobody bothered to ask the citizens of Crimea and Sevastopol. They were faced with the fact. People, of course, wondered why all of a sudden Crimea became part of Ukraine. But on the whole – and we must state this clearly, we all know it – this decision was treated as a formality of sorts because the territory was transferred within the boundaries of a single state. Back then, it was impossible to imagine that Ukraine and Russia may split up and become two separate states. However, this has happened.
Unfortunately, what seemed impossible became a reality. The USSR fell apart. Things developed so swiftly that few people realised how truly dramatic those events and their consequences would be. Many people both in Russia and in Ukraine, as well as in other republics hoped that the Commonwealth of Independent States that was created at the time would become the new common form of statehood. They were told that there would be a single currency, a single economic space, joint armed forces; however, all this remained empty promises, while the big country was gone. It was only when Crimea ended up as part of a different country that Russia realised that it was not simply robbed, it was plundered.
At the same time, we have to admit that by launching the sovereignty parade Russia itself aided in the collapse of the Soviet Union. And as this collapse was legalised, everyone forgot about Crimea and Sevastopol – the main base of the Black Sea Fleet. Millions of people went to bed in one country and awoke in different ones, overnight becoming ethnic minorities in former Union republics, while the Russian nation became one of the biggest, if not the biggest ethnic group in the world to be divided by borders.
Now, many years later, I heard residents of Crimea say that back in 1991 they were handed over like a sack of potatoes. This is hard to disagree with. And what about the Russian state? What about Russia? It humbly accepted the situation. This country was going through such hard times then that realistically it was incapable of protecting its interests. However, the people could not reconcile themselves to this outrageous historical injustice. All these years, citizens and many public figures came back to this issue, saying that Crimea is historically Russian land and Sevastopol is a Russian city. Yes, we all knew this in our hearts and minds, but we had to proceed from the existing reality and build our good-neighbourly relations with independent Ukraine on a new basis. Meanwhile, our relations with Ukraine, with the fraternal Ukrainian people have always been and will remain of foremost importance for us.
Today we can speak about it openly, and I would like to share with you some details of the negotiations that took place in the early 2000s. The then President of Ukraine Mr Kuchma asked me to expedite the process of delimiting the Russian-Ukrainian border. At that time, the process was practically at a standstill. Russia seemed to have recognised Crimea as part of Ukraine, but there were no negotiations on delimiting the borders. Despite the complexity of the situation, I immediately issued instructions to Russian government agencies to speed up their work to document the borders, so that everyone had a clear understanding that by agreeing to delimit the border we admitted de facto and de jure that Crimea was Ukrainian territory, thereby closing the issue.
We accommodated Ukraine not only regarding Crimea, but also on such a complicated matter as the maritime boundary in the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait. What we proceeded from back then was that good relations with Ukraine matter most for us and they should not fall hostage to deadlock territorial disputes. However, we expected Ukraine to remain our good neighbour, we hoped that Russian citizens and Russian speakers in Ukraine, especially its southeast and Crimea, would live in a friendly, democratic and civilised state that would protect their rights in line with the norms of international law.
However, this is not how the situation developed. Time and time again attempts were made to deprive Russians of their historical memory, even of their language and to subject them to forced assimilation. Moreover, Russians, just as other citizens of Ukraine are suffering from the constant political and state crisis that has been rocking the country for over 20 years.
I understand why Ukrainian people wanted change. They have had enough of the authorities in power during the years of Ukraine’s independence. Presidents, prime ministers and parliamentarians changed, but their attitude to the country and its people remained the same. They milked the country, fought among themselves for power, assets and cash flows and did not care much about the ordinary people. They did not wonder why it was that millions of Ukrainian citizens saw no prospects at home and went to other countries to work as day labourers. I would like to stress this: it was not some Silicon Valley they fled to, but to become day labourers. Last year alone almost 3 million people found such jobs in Russia. According to some sources, in 2013 their earnings in Russia totalled over $20 billion, which is about 12% of Ukraine’s GDP."
Before you can say "conspiracy". This excerpt of Putin's speech is sourced directly from the Kremlin.
http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889
Except that the "scenario" is looking more and more like the typical "set up" that the elites in the west conduct to
smear their enemies. It is brilliant and insidious at the same time, as we can see the US western media, controlled a narrow group are doing their usual "alluding", "hinting", and
creating evidence (witness the fake communication between a supposed Russian Major and one of the rebels) that just aired on NBC News tonight. Unfortunately the general public in the US are pretty dull,clueless and generally cannot think for themselves and are glad to be led by the "nose", each and every time.
Remember the "yellow cake" debacle? LOL
smear their enemies. It is brilliant and insidious at the same time, as we can see the US western media, controlled a narrow group are doing their usual "alluding", "hinting", and
creating evidence (witness the fake communication between a supposed Russian Major and one of the rebels) that just aired on NBC News tonight. Unfortunately the general public in the US are pretty dull,clueless and generally cannot think for themselves and are glad to be led by the "nose", each and every time.
Remember the "yellow cake" debacle? LOL
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Set up?
If the "elites" in the west tried to setup up Putin. This has been terrible planning and execution. Outmaneuvered in Europe check. In Iraq the U.S. elected government could not pull troops out of there fast enough. Then "the elite in the west" had the perfect opportunity to make some serious coin by selling weapons and brokering rich crude oil contracts. This did not happen. Putin comes in on his white horse and sells a rich contract to the Iraqi government to provide weapons and support to fight ISIS.
Meanwhile the majority of the west is unattached and it's leaders in the U.S. are more interested in mid term election fundraising.
If the "elites" are setting up Putin, it is a set up to make him look like mad genius. Providing Russia with an oil rich alliance with an government that was setup with the help of fallen "westerners" not the least Americans. Thus Russia gains more influence in an region the "elites" would prefer not to lose influence.
Some does stink, like the believe that an all influencing shadow government could be so incompetent. Sorry there are no "elites" If "elites' did exist they were uber geniuses for decades and within 90 days transformed into incompetent idiots.
If the "elites" in the west tried to setup up Putin. This has been terrible planning and execution. Outmaneuvered in Europe check. In Iraq the U.S. elected government could not pull troops out of there fast enough. Then "the elite in the west" had the perfect opportunity to make some serious coin by selling weapons and brokering rich crude oil contracts. This did not happen. Putin comes in on his white horse and sells a rich contract to the Iraqi government to provide weapons and support to fight ISIS.
Meanwhile the majority of the west is unattached and it's leaders in the U.S. are more interested in mid term election fundraising.
If the "elites" are setting up Putin, it is a set up to make him look like mad genius. Providing Russia with an oil rich alliance with an government that was setup with the help of fallen "westerners" not the least Americans. Thus Russia gains more influence in an region the "elites" would prefer not to lose influence.
Some does stink, like the believe that an all influencing shadow government could be so incompetent. Sorry there are no "elites" If "elites' did exist they were uber geniuses for decades and within 90 days transformed into incompetent idiots.
LOL, you are wasting your time. Some people can hear but don't listen.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Follow the money...who benefits the most.
The IMF and Global Banksters want to consolidate control of the
Western World.
My guess is that in typical fashion of the elite banking cadres they have attempted to "set up" the Russians, and the sepratists by staging this attack and trying to blame it on them. This is
SOP for these creatures.
You want the culprits? It IS the banking elites.
Someone is watching too many Alex Jones youtubes.
Follow the money...who benefits the most.
The IMF and Global Banksters want to consolidate control of the
Western World.
My guess is that in typical fashion of the elite banking cadres they have attempted to "set up" the Russians, and the sepratists by staging this attack and trying to blame it on them. This is
SOP for these creatures.
You want the culprits? It IS the banking elites.
Someone is watching too many Alex Jones youtubes.
Some here doth protest too much. Checkmate.
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