Vegetable-based Biodegradable Lubricants
- Thread starter TexasTDI
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Vegetable oils are inherently unstable and will never ever, ever go in the crankcase of my car. However, they may be OK for uses where they are quickly consumed and residues may end up in the environment. Outboards are notorious for leaving an oily skim on the water. Both chain saw fuel and bar oil tend to get spilled outdoors a lot. The gasoline evaporates polluting the air. Having the oil residue be biodegradable would help. Even the grease is not always subjected to heat, and is protected from oxygen in the bearing or boot. Could be worth looking at. Didn't see any on the shelf at Home Depot today.
MolaKule
Staff member
BTW, our Yellow Wasp Chain Saw oil contains seed oil derivatives.
[ March 16, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Animal derived esters and other oils are among the most tenacious and are being studied.
aehaas
aehaas
Molakule, Surely you had to sit through thousands of "Hemp Oil" papers in college!! I can see the new oil lable now...... Castrol Hemptech THC 0W5!!! The Green Peac'er and Siera Club'er will love it!!
P.S. I am not all for hemp as an industrial marvel but just got tired of the constant "Hemp Papers" in college!!!
P.S. I am not all for hemp as an industrial marvel but just got tired of the constant "Hemp Papers" in college!!!
MolaKule
Staff member
You have mentioned this twice but with no supporting documentation.
The discussion is about high oleic content, genetically modified, refined seed oils, not gooey castor oil.
Most geneticly modified seed oil plants are fairly high in their own anti-oxidants, the natural polyphenols.
I don't have a website to cite to prove the sun came up today either. I did spend 10 years preparing paint resins using vegetable oils. A search on drying oils should confirm what I have said. Oleic acid is monounsaturated, and does not oxidize as well as more highly unsaturated ones, but tall oil which is mostly oleic acid, works very well in paint, oxidizing to a hard coating. Castor oil is naturally saturated and must be chemically modified before using as a drying oil. It has a successful history as a motor oil.
Exposure to heat and oxygen will eventually deplete all the antioxidants. I can not understand why anybody would start out with an unstable, unsaturated material instead of saturated materials.
Exposure to heat and oxygen will eventually deplete all the antioxidants. I can not understand why anybody would start out with an unstable, unsaturated material instead of saturated materials.
Has anyone done a VOA on extra virgin olive oil? What's the viscosity of this stuff at 100C?
I've tried it in my old lawnmower, and it worked for several weekends before I drained it out.
Coconut oil is staurated, but has a pour point of 24C.
I've tried it in my old lawnmower, and it worked for several weekends before I drained it out.
Coconut oil is staurated, but has a pour point of 24C.
"Exposure to heat and oxygen will eventually deplete all the antioxidants. I can not understand why anybody would start out with an unstable, unsaturated material instead of saturated materials."
Labman you are 100% correct on this.
"The discussion is about high oleic content, genetically modified, refined seed oils, not gooey castor oil."
Sorry to say but High Oleic Safflower or Sunflower 85% Oleic, WILL even with a good 1-1.5% BHT AO form a "gooey castor oil type sludge".
All seed oil even High oleic engineered are still way inferior to even old GP I solvent exstracted base oils that are laughed at nowdays.
Other than all loss or high leak rate oils they still suck. Unless you need a sticky drying oily film for lubrication.
The industry years ago started with basic seed oils as a earth frendly lubricant and found out fast that seed oils suck then came the high oleic bio enginered seed oils and now the trend is to use ester's from seed or other renewable source oils with PAO, GPIII or other esters with a high 1-2% anti oxidant package.
This will cure some of the oxidation problems but to date even bio engineered seed oils suck.
Proof is in the "NEW" bio lube oxidation tests and limits they are far less severe that like tests for mineral oil products.
Example a good mineral oil with AO will run 3,000 hours or more in the ASTM D 943 test but for a bio lube you are lucky to get couple hundred hours.
NO Cargill bio enginered seed oil I have seen will get close to a GPI oil let alone a GPII.
Sure a bio seed oil will run in a car engine fine for a while but so will a dino oil but I would hate to have to de gunk it after.
Bruce
Labman you are 100% correct on this.
"The discussion is about high oleic content, genetically modified, refined seed oils, not gooey castor oil."
Sorry to say but High Oleic Safflower or Sunflower 85% Oleic, WILL even with a good 1-1.5% BHT AO form a "gooey castor oil type sludge".
All seed oil even High oleic engineered are still way inferior to even old GP I solvent exstracted base oils that are laughed at nowdays.
Other than all loss or high leak rate oils they still suck. Unless you need a sticky drying oily film for lubrication.
The industry years ago started with basic seed oils as a earth frendly lubricant and found out fast that seed oils suck then came the high oleic bio enginered seed oils and now the trend is to use ester's from seed or other renewable source oils with PAO, GPIII or other esters with a high 1-2% anti oxidant package.
This will cure some of the oxidation problems but to date even bio engineered seed oils suck.
Proof is in the "NEW" bio lube oxidation tests and limits they are far less severe that like tests for mineral oil products.
Example a good mineral oil with AO will run 3,000 hours or more in the ASTM D 943 test but for a bio lube you are lucky to get couple hundred hours.
NO Cargill bio enginered seed oil I have seen will get close to a GPI oil let alone a GPII.
Sure a bio seed oil will run in a car engine fine for a while but so will a dino oil but I would hate to have to de gunk it after.
Bruce
Also with our oil consumption I think that we would use all of plants up in no time.
All I know is I recently ran a one hour 250C Noack test on a High Oleic Sunflower oil that is commericailly available for the food industry, and saw a loss of a whole 3.3%.
MolaKule
Staff member
I respectfully recommend you do a search in the Patent Office, SAE, and TLT (STLE) on new Anti-Oxidant developments for bio-based lube oils.
I'll even give you a hint: RTV's Vanlube 9317 and VanLube 8610.
Do searches on Renewable Lubricant's as well.
MolaKule
Staff member
Thanks, but all my work is in "wet" lubricating oils with performance and improvement additives.
Again Labman is 100% correct I know of no ASTM RBOT or D-943 tests that show ANY seed oil even close in oxidation resistance. Esters yes but high oliec seed oils no. I have seen some improvement blending in GPI or esters otherwise they are not very good it data is avalible let me know. Van Lube 9317 Diphenylamine have tried it TBHQ worked better but still not near as good as a inhibited GPI oil. Van Lube 8610 Antimony never used but is not listed as a primary AO for seed oils.
bruce
bruce
The best seed oil out has a ASTM D-943 oxidation of about 750 hours to a TAN 2.0 and this is a easy test version in that the test was done without any water.
A GPI oil with inhibitor will run to 2500+ hours not even close. Then you have to deal with lousy PP and additive solubility.
Yes I have done a lot of work in this over the years and recently with all the BIO engineered oils, they are better but still not near as good as a GPI which now days sucks.
bruce
A GPI oil with inhibitor will run to 2500+ hours not even close. Then you have to deal with lousy PP and additive solubility.
Yes I have done a lot of work in this over the years and recently with all the BIO engineered oils, they are better but still not near as good as a GPI which now days sucks.
bruce
The advances being made in oleochemicals are amazing, and companies that cannot see the future in them will be wishing they had invested time and research dollars in the field. If the advances continue at present rate I think you wouldn't hesitate to pour some oil derived from certain seed oil base-stock into your crankcase, within ten years.
I did invest my time and research dollars into this and You are right but just not yet at this point in time.
bruce
bruce
MolaKule
Staff member
SbDTC can be used as a secondary AO or in some cases, it can be used as a primary AO, depending on treatment levels.
As is the norm, lab testing is needed to determine which AO works best and to answer what treatment level is required.
Did a little experiment today, crude, severe, and not entirely apples to apples, but one anybody can do. I strongly suggest trying it before putting soybean oil in your engine. I turned my quartz shop light straight up and slipped a strip of 20 gauge steel on top. On 1 end was Pennzoil 5W-30 - old Sl dino stuff, the other end, some common liquid cooking oil, cheap Carlini brand from Aldi's. They both smoked a little after a few minutes. I came back in about 40 minutes. The Pennzoil was still liquid. The soybean oil was a gummy mess. The cooking oil has some antioxidants to keep it liquid in use. A fairer test would be to use some pure mineral oil without any additives. I am sure the results would be the same. Yes, you can use higher oleic content oil and doctor it up with additives, but you are still starting with an inherently polymerizable material.
I see vegetable oils as lubricants as another pie in the sky boondoggle like hydrogen fueled cars. Yes, petroleum stocks are limited. However we can consume more soybean oil as biodiesel than we can ever produce. Too bad all this work isn't going into something that has a chance like liquidfacation of coal.
I see vegetable oils as lubricants as another pie in the sky boondoggle like hydrogen fueled cars. Yes, petroleum stocks are limited. However we can consume more soybean oil as biodiesel than we can ever produce. Too bad all this work isn't going into something that has a chance like liquidfacation of coal.
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