U.S. gov lost 11.2 billion on GM bailout.

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
Ford is the only one with any class in this mess. Ed


Really? How about the 15.9 billion that Ford Credit took in bailout money? Larger than the credit arm of any other auto company.

http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money

And the 5.9 billion that the government loaned Ford to produce Electric vehicles and hybrids. And they fell behind schedule paying back. Yes, they were further behind than GM or Chrysler...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/...t-surprise-you/

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Ford is the only one with any class in this mess. Ed


Really? How about the 15.9 billion that Ford Credit took in bailout money? Larger than the credit arm of any other auto company.

http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money

And the 5.9 billion that the government loaned Ford to produce Electric vehicles and hybrids. And they fell behind schedule paying back. Yes, they were further behind than GM or Chrysler...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/...t-surprise-you/


"According to the Fed, the commercial paper loans have been paid in full, while some $2 billion remains outstanding on loans for bond investor."
http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money

So you do not understand fiance?

I will tell you how it works. A person or business takes a loan and if the person or company pays the loan back with or without interest. The loan is paid in full. GM took a 13.9 billion loan and still filed for Chapter 11.

So GM filed chapter 11 and defaulted. Defaulted equals did not or was unable to pay back loans to investors and or the government.

This is not a comparable comparison. This is a example GM defender upset from the truth GM was a failed company.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: rat
and that is confirmed when you see that the current ceo has a higher pay than any that came before her.


Ummmmm... no.

Mary Barra's overall compensation package is worth $14.4 million.

In 2008, while the company was steaming toward bankruptcy, Rick Wagoner received $14.9 million in total compensation. More than Mary Barra.

In 2000, Jack Smith received nearly $26 million in overall compensation. Much more than Mary Barra.

So, no, you are incorrect. There have been many, MANY GM CEOs who have received far more compensation than Mary Barra.

 

[Eddie]

I wonder how a CEO feels as he/she receives millions in compensation while they watch the company spiral down because of mismanagement? Na, they don't give a s..t. JMO. Ed

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Eddie
I wonder how a CEO feels as he/she receives millions in compensation while they watch the company spiral down because of mismanagement? Na, they don't give a s..t. JMO. Ed


It depends. If he/she is an American CEO, they are thinking of their golden parachute and the best time to bail out. Rinse and repeat, as it seems there are plenty of companies more then willing to hire these crooks.

In all other countries, CEOs receive much smaller salaries and bonuses are tied up to stock options with very strict cashing in policies.

 

[Touring5]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


Noticed also no one mentioned the Delphi folks. All you guys who want 'the rest of the story' need to know there's a LOT of doo doo in there. Anytime big govt is paying off the unions for getting out the vote things get real stinky...


That is my main complaint (as a holder of a small amount of Delphi garbage stock). While the unions made out great, shareholders, both individuals and group pension plans, got shafted big time.

 

[yeti]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


This was the point that I was trying to make in my first post in this thread.
The money didn't dissapear down a rathole and there are significant dividends to both the treasury as well as to the greater economy in terms of income taxes collected, sustained output, jobs preserved, unemployment claims not paid, suppliers kept alive and pensions not reduced to almost nothing.
All of the wages earned by those workers who kept their jobs as well as the benefits preserved for those retired cycle back into the economy as either purchases made or taxes paid.
This "bailout", like those that have come before probably made eceonomic sense, even if it was ideological poison to some.


don't you guys know that logic and fact have no place in the big 3 "haters 'gonna hate" threads ? as well, many comments are just wrong. that's what makes these threads so funny/entertaining.have a good day, and evening.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: yeti
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


This was the point that I was trying to make in my first post in this thread.
The money didn't dissapear down a rathole and there are significant dividends to both the treasury as well as to the greater economy in terms of income taxes collected, sustained output, jobs preserved, unemployment claims not paid, suppliers kept alive and pensions not reduced to almost nothing.
All of the wages earned by those workers who kept their jobs as well as the benefits preserved for those retired cycle back into the economy as either purchases made or taxes paid.
This "bailout", like those that have come before probably made eceonomic sense, even if it was ideological poison to some.


don't you guys know that logic and fact have no place in the big 3 "haters 'gonna hate" threads ? as well, many comments are just wrong. that's what makes these threads so funny/entertaining.have a good day, and evening.


Logic and facts huh? How about giving us hard numbers to compare against $11.2 billion? Those would be some facts that could be used to apply logic.

You do know the difference between facts and speculation......right?

 

[Drew99GT]

Just put a 3rd water crossover gasket in our 07 Impala. GM can go to [censored]. I'll never even think twice about buying one again. The market tried putting the company out to pasture once, and I don't care of a foreign company would have bought them in a real non government sponsored bankruptcy. Maybe then they would have learned their lesson.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: Touring5
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


Noticed also no one mentioned the Delphi folks. All you guys who want 'the rest of the story' need to know there's a LOT of doo doo in there. Anytime big govt is paying off the unions for getting out the vote things get real stinky...


That is my main complaint (as a holder of a small amount of Delphi garbage stock). While the unions made out great, shareholders, both individuals and group pension plans, got shafted big time.


Well there's the Federal Pension Guaranty Corp that would have lost a bunch of money from the underfunded pensions that are to be provided to the ink of the contract.

Shareholders aren't guaranteed any particular liquidation value.

However I would have leveraged the bankruptcy so the employees (and, by extension or by convenience, the union) gave up more in cooperation for a restructuring that benefitted most parties similarly unfairly.

The old parable of tortoise and hare, putting your time in, etc... it's unfair for a line employee to be held responsible (in lost pension etc) for some bean counter choosing an inferior, not-durable part.

 

[dlundblad]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't GM have a financial management issue? Even after they received government funds?

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Just put a 3rd water crossover gasket in our 07 Impala. GM can go to [censored]. I'll never even think twice about buying one again. The market tried putting the company out to pasture once, and I don't care of a foreign company would have bought them in a real non government sponsored bankruptcy. Maybe then they would have learned their lesson.


Not saying GM doesn't have their issues, but so do the imports (transmissions, rust issues, sludge, etc.) IMO every foreign mfg. should be run off before the first American mfg. is allowed to fail. It's not like the Japanese don't prop up their own industries.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
Originally Posted By: yeti
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


This was the point that I was trying to make in my first post in this thread.
The money didn't dissapear down a rathole and there are significant dividends to both the treasury as well as to the greater economy in terms of income taxes collected, sustained output, jobs preserved, unemployment claims not paid, suppliers kept alive and pensions not reduced to almost nothing.
All of the wages earned by those workers who kept their jobs as well as the benefits preserved for those retired cycle back into the economy as either purchases made or taxes paid.
This "bailout", like those that have come before probably made eceonomic sense, even if it was ideological poison to some.


don't you guys know that logic and fact have no place in the big 3 "haters 'gonna hate" threads ? as well, many comments are just wrong. that's what makes these threads so funny/entertaining.have a good day, and evening.


Logic and facts huh? How about giving us hard numbers to compare against $11.2 billion? Those would be some facts that could be used to apply logic.

You do know the difference between facts and speculation......right?


So you're of the school that holds that the money really did dissapear into the looking glass?
Sounds like you're not letting economic reality get in the way of your thinking on this.

 

[turtlevette]

It's just the way of the world. As noted in a post above the Japanese gvmt. protects and supports their home grown companies. The Germans support their manufs. The European gvmts support Airbus etc.

Our home grown manufs have been fighting to compete with foreign government backed companies since the beginning.

Then on top of that, having to jump thru all the U.S. gvmt regulations that continually make cars more expensive to build.

I could even make a case that its an national security issue, ie, we need to have a certain amount of manufacturing on our soil in case world events get ugly.

We don't know if we will always be getting along with Japan, Europe.

Look at Russia. We thought things were going good then wam overnight.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Just put a 3rd water crossover gasket in our 07 Impala. GM can go to [censored]. I'll never even think twice about buying one again. The market tried putting the company out to pasture once, and I don't care of a foreign company would have bought them in a real non government sponsored bankruptcy. Maybe then they would have learned their lesson.


Not saying GM doesn't have their issues, but so do the imports (transmissions, rust issues, sludge, etc.) IMO every foreign mfg. should be run off before the first American mfg. is allowed to fail. It's not like the Japanese don't prop up their own industries.


THANK YOU!!!

Yes, MANY on here conveniently forget that some of the Nippon manufacturers could ALSO be disparagingly called the (verboten on here) moniker they are SO quick to call/blame GM.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
So you're of the school that holds that the money really did dissapear into the looking glass?
Sounds like you're not letting economic reality get in the way of your thinking on this.


Post some numbers and we'll see for sure whether or not it was worth the investment.

 

[Bamaro]

Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
It wasn't a bailout of GM, it was a bailout of the UAW. GM would not have been liquidated, they would have shed debt AND renegotiated UAW contracts.

Simply untrue. To go through normal CH 11, DIP financing is required but DIP financing was not available. The government was the financier of last resort.

 

[kschachn]

When everybody is unwilling to do something, that generally means there is a reason why.

Originally Posted By: Bamaro
Simply untrue. To go through normal CH 11, DIP financing is required but DIP financing was not available. The government was the financier of last resort.

 

[dishdude]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
When everybody is unwilling to do something, that generally means there is a reason why.



The market totally collapsed and no one was loaning any money 2008/2009.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Just put a 3rd water crossover gasket in our 07 Impala. GM can go to [censored]. I'll never even think twice about buying one again. The market tried putting the company out to pasture once, and I don't care of a foreign company would have bought them in a real non government sponsored bankruptcy. Maybe then they would have learned their lesson.


Not saying GM doesn't have their issues, but so do the imports (transmissions, rust issues, sludge, etc.) IMO every foreign mfg. should be run off before the first American mfg. is allowed to fail. It's not like the Japanese don't prop up their own industries.


THANK YOU!!!

Yes, MANY on here conveniently forget that some of the Nippon manufacturers could ALSO be disparagingly called the (verboten on here) moniker they are SO quick to call/blame GM.

They didn't go BANKRUPT and have to have their governments bail them out.

Yes, other manufacturers have issues, but we've had more of them with GMs. If you haven't, that is fine, but I simply won't buy another one ever again. For US, General Motors vehicles have been complete piece of [censored] cars.