U.S. gov lost 11.2 billion on GM bailout.

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: R2d2
GM bailout final loss number

No opinion either way.


With what this government spends, this is pocket change.

Our great, great grandkids will still be paying for it at this point.


IBTL, too.

Actually, nobody will be paying for this or any other debt that the US government accrues. That's the beauty of the scheme. Since our currency is no longer backed by an actual tangible asset, debt levels just don't matter any more. The whole "debt crisis" is just what the magician is showing you in his hand in front of your face while the other hand is actually doing the things that he doesn't want you to see.

And the only reason that newspapers still publish stories like this is to keep the illusion alive. What makes me shake my head is that the vast majority are either not able to see past the parlor trick, or simply choose not to. And then they get to vote every two years.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


Noticed also no one mentioned the Delphi folks. All you guys who want 'the rest of the story' need to know there's a LOT of doo doo in there. Anytime big govt is paying off the unions for getting out the vote things get real stinky...

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar

And the only reason that newspapers still publish stories like this is to keep the illusion alive. What makes me shake my head is that the vast majority are either not able to see past the parlor trick, or simply choose not to. And then they get to vote every two years.


As long as most of our paper money is hoarded by folks overseas, they have more confidence in us than they do their own money. We don't have to be perfect by any local yardstick. We just have to do better than the other major players... Euro, Yuan. We just beat the Greeks!

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar


Actually, nobody will be paying for this or any other debt that the US government accrues. That's the beauty of the scheme.


Somebody ALWAYS pays. Somebody ALWAYS profits. Don't be naive. Remember 1933 in Germany. Not that I'd like to.

 

[D189379]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


Noticed also no one mentioned the Delphi folks. All you guys who want 'the rest of the story' need to know there's a LOT of doo doo in there. Anytime big govt is paying off the unions for getting out the vote things get real stinky...


It's just funny that people flip out over 11 billion, but don't realize that GM and it's employees give double that back to the government every year in tax. And I'm not even including parts suppliers.

 

[morepwr]

The bailout saved tons of jobs and smaller companies as well so it was a better investment than giving money to some 3rd world country in my opinion.

 

[zzyzzx]

It wasn't a bailout of GM, it was a bailout of the UAW. GM would not have been liquidated, they would have shed debt AND renegotiated UAW contracts.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I have become neither here nor there on the "bailout". I used to be against it. I acknowledge now that it's such a complex issue, and the ramifications of not doing something vs. doing something are probably nearly impossible to accurately measure, that I can't develop an informed opinion.

 

[threeputtpar]

Originally Posted By: Volvohead
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar


Actually, nobody will be paying for this or any other debt that the US government accrues. That's the beauty of the scheme.


Somebody ALWAYS pays. Somebody ALWAYS profits. Don't be naive. Remember 1933 in Germany. Not that I'd like to.


I was speaking of the increasing mound of national debt when I said that nobody will be paying it back. It will just continue to be refinanced with new Treasury debt as the current ones come due, where the issuance of new debt will continue to outpace the retirement of old debt. I'm far from naive, actually it's the citizens that think that any elected official will ever stop the steady and purposeful raising of the national debt that are the truly naive ones.

I'd like nothing better than to see this country live within its means, but the second that happens we will be thrown into an instant depression just from the fearful reactions of the people of Wall St that the gravy train has come off the tracks.

 

[Sam2000]

I think overall it was a good thing.

The industry faced a shock from the financial sector so was not at fault for the downturn in their fortunes.

Plus, the administration implemented restructuring that GM management had failed to do.

It softened the blow of the financial crisis.

Now if it had gone bust, the market would have found a way eg people come in to buy the best parts of GM, parts makers would restructure probably helped by the surviving companies. Have no doubt that the market would find a way and that heads of the other companies call for help because it means they don't have to go through tough decisions and upheaval in their industry, not because they couldn't survive.

But the bottom line is if left to the market, it would have been a short term mess for a lot of people, executives, workers and everyone in between and there is an argument that excessive short term damage can be bad for the long term too.

 

[Sam2000]

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
I was speaking of the increasing mound of national debt when I said that nobody will be paying it back. It will just continue to be refinanced with new Treasury debt as the current ones come due, where the issuance of new debt will continue to outpace the retirement of old debt. I'm far from naive, actually it's the citizens that think that any elected official will ever stop the steady and purposeful raising of the national debt that are the truly naive ones.

I'd like nothing better than to see this country live within its means, but the second that happens we will be thrown into an instant depression just from the fearful reactions of the people of Wall St that the gravy train has come off the tracks.


I agree and well put. (putt?)

But don't forget the power of inflation!

 

[artificialist]

Their cars sucked, and people quit buying them because of that. If by 1988, every GM car was everything it could have been, and the UAW couldn't stop machines from replacing people, none of this stuff would have happened.

 

[Eddie]

Next topic is what did Chrysler cost us? Ford is the only one with any class in this mess. Ed

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Saved jobs, preserved benefits for current retirees, and kept a foreign company from buying them while in Bankruptcy .

The Germans would have done the same but they already own a portion of their auto manufacturers.


The law is to prevent takeovers by outside interest, its a good thing.

 

[Sam2000]

I always thought the free market was a good thing.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: D189379
Why do they not include all of the corporate/employee income/auto tax revenues they've collected since in that calculation? Or the dividends GM stock paid. Or the unemployment insurance they didn't have to pay to the GM employees that would have been laid off?

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


This was the point that I was trying to make in my first post in this thread.
The money didn't dissapear down a rathole and there are significant dividends to both the treasury as well as to the greater economy in terms of income taxes collected, sustained output, jobs preserved, unemployment claims not paid, suppliers kept alive and pensions not reduced to almost nothing.
All of the wages earned by those workers who kept their jobs as well as the benefits preserved for those retired cycle back into the economy as either purchases made or taxes paid.
This "bailout", like those that have come before probably made eceonomic sense, even if it was ideological poison to some.

 

[SlipperyPete]

The good news for those who support the bailout is you will likely get to see another the next time the economy takes a downturn because they didn't fix the problems that prompted this one.

 

[rat]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
The good news for those who support the bailout is you will likely get to see another the next time the economy takes a downturn because they didn't fix the problems that prompted this one.


^^^^^This^^^^^
GM should have been allowed to fail in my opinion. All the bailout did was reward greedy business practices, and that is confirmed when you see that the current ceo has a higher pay than any that came before her.
And for those that cheer that it saved so many jobs, what about all the thousands of dealerships across the country that were forced to close? All those people lost their jobs. How is that fair? The workers from GM would have quickly been swooped up by Toyota or Honda or whoever was first to take over the market share left by GM, and would look like a hero because they came in and saved the economy and kept gave all those workers better jobs than they had before.

 

[kschachn]

Problems which bankruptcy would have fixed.

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
The good news for those who support the bailout is you will likely get to see another the next time the economy takes a downturn because they didn't fix the problems that prompted this one.

 

[BearZDefect]

Originally Posted By: D189379
...

I don't care about GM or the US government, but I hate articles that don't give you all the facts.


Half-truths. It is rife in the media, who are as corrupt as the other big players.