Toyota filter vs. Amsoil EA

[dino33]

I've read that the Amsoil has better filtration specs, but I've been told by some Toyota enthusiasts to stick with Toyota filters because they have a better flow rate and that my Toyota needs the high flow rate and the stock filters are designed for our cars. I go to the Amsoil site and they state that their filter are higher flowing than others because of the design.

Should I go for the Amsoil? I like the idea of longer filter change because I will be going at least 10k oic.

Thanks in advance guys....

 

[simple_gifts]

Who says they need a high flow rate? I've been using OTC Purolater for 10 years. Used them for 10K too.

 

[dino33]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Who says they need a high flow rate?


'They'... You know, the experts, lol. You'd imagine all engines would benefit from a high flow rate. I guess what I'm really trying to find out is, do Amsoil filters have a flow rate that is better or worse than Toyota filters? I wonder if there is a way to find out. Is there a link to such a source....

 

[SigQAEngineer]

I can't comment on Amsoil filter but I can share my experience w/ K&N vs. Toyota filter.

I switched to K&N because I fell for the high performance, flow & capacity hype & regretted it the very first day, as I heard valve lifter noise for the first time in my 08 Prius (1NZ-FXE) engine.

Switch back to Toyota's factory filter 2 days later, noise disappeared. Lesson learned.

Originally Posted By: dino33
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Who says they need a high flow rate?


'They'... You know, the experts, lol. You'd imagine all engines would benefit from a high flow rate. I guess what I'm really trying to find out is, do Amsoil filters have a flow rate that is better or worse than Toyota filters? I wonder if there is a way to find out. Is there a link to such a source....

 

[lubedude13]

I've used factory, purolator and amsoil. As far as flow rate I couldn't tell you but if you are doing 10k or longer runs......put an amsoil beside a factory filter and tell me which one you'd rather use. I showed a customer at my shop that the other day and said I'm definitely using amsoil filters.

 

[chubbs1]

You do not need an Amsoil filter (especially if the 10k run is the main reason). Almost any filter I have seen can make a 10k/1yr OCI. I really don't know if your engine is as picky as mine with the OEM Hyundai filter (several TSB's) because if that is the case just use the Toyota OEM. If not I would try a Fram Ultra or Purolator Synthetic filter. both are built like tanks and have good flow characteristics

 

[Voltmaster]

No OEM filter is going to be "high flow" unless its a sport car.

Most OEM filters focus on life span/filteration. Because they know people forget to do their oil changes and longivity is most important.

 

[ZeeOSix]

dino33 - the cars in your signature don't need a "high flow" oil filter. I doubt those engines put out more than 5~6 GPM at redline. Any known name brand oil filter will flow tons more than those engines can produce.

There has been a long running internet myth that Purolators are "restrictive" ... I say not.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

If a PureOne can flow what a 400+ HP V8 can put out, I'd think it would handle a Prius oil pump just fine.

 

[SigQAEngineer]

Yes. Especially true w/ a Prius engine redlining at 5000 rpm. Any high performance/high flow filter is over kill IMO.

Originally Posted By: Voltmaster
No OEM filter is going to be "high flow" unless its a sport car.

Most OEM filters focus on life span/filteration. Because they know people forget to do their oil changes and longivity is most important.

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: dino33
I've read that the Amsoil has better filtration specs, but I've been told by some Toyota enthusiasts to stick with Toyota filters because they have a better flow rate and that my Toyota needs the high flow rate and the stock filters are designed for our cars. I go to the Amsoil site and they state that their filter are higher flowing than others because of the design.

Should I go for the Amsoil? I like the idea of longer filter change because I will be going at least 10k oic.

Thanks in advance guys....


The Toyota know-it-all people have no facts to back up their comments. Either filter will be fine. But if you are going to extend your OCI, you need a filter designed for that like an Amsoil and others (M1 D+).

 

[lubedude13]

That's my way of life....5k -7k intervals use a factory filter. For extended intervals I recommend a wix xl, amsoil ea, or purolator synthetic

 

[Nate1979]

Check out this TSB from Amsoil:
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/filtration/tsb fl-2009-05-01 eao toyota.pdf

This is not news.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Check out this TSB from Amsoil:
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/filtration/tsb fl-2009-05-01 eao toyota.pdf

This is not news.


In the TSB it said:
"However, if the filter reaches maximum capacity, the level of restriction can become significant enough to trigger the oil pressure warning light. In extreme situations, oil starvation could occur."

After reading the above TSB and it's talking about the oil light coming on (I'm assuming at idle), but what I don't get is that regardless if the filter is clogged up and the filter's bypass valve opens, with a positive displacement oil pump the same oil volume should be getting to the engine as long as the pump isn't in pressure relief, and therefore the engine's oil pressure shouldn't really change.

That is, IF the bypass valve is big enough to not become a major restriction and choke down the flow enough to make the oil pump go into pressure relief. But, who knows ... maybe some of these vehicles have something beside a positive displacement oil pump ... ???

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: dino33
I've been told by some Toyota enthusiasts to stick with Toyota filters because they have a better flow rate
Better than what......every other filter?

I use OEM Toyota filters on my sister's and B-I-L's cars, and my buddy Frankie's car, because I firmly believe you can't go wrong with OEM, in most cases. This is no reflection on AMSOIL filters, which I know are very high quality, but you could do 3 filter changes using OEM for the price of 1 AMSOIL. If you're that concerned, change the Toyota filter half-way through an OCI and you'll still be money ahead.

 

[gpshumway]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
dino33 - the cars in your signature don't need a "high flow" oil filter. I doubt those engines put out more than 5~6 GPM at redline. Any known name brand oil filter will flow tons more than those engines can produce.


I wouldn't be so sure. Subaru 4 cyls are well known to produce over 12 GPM, the humble 1.8l "R18" in my Honda Civic puts out 13.8 GPM at redline according to the service manual. The K20 2.0l in the Civic Si puts out 14.3 GPM at 6,000 RPM and redlines at a screaming 8,000 RPM, which translates to ~19 GPM at redline. That's three engines from two Asian manufacturers. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotas were of similar design.

Quote:
There has been a long running internet myth that Purolators are "restrictive" ... I say not.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451


I agree that Purolators aren't any more restrictive than any other aftermarket filter, but if the Amsoil chart of the Toyota and Honda filters is to be believed we have to believe one of two things; either they have really lousy media (doubtful) or they place a high priority on flow over efficiency.

Quote:
If a PureOne can flow what a 400+ HP V8 can put out, I'd think it would handle a Prius oil pump just fine.

Apples and oranges. That 400hp V8 doesn't have any hydrodynamic bearings in the cylinder heads. Hot-start is one of the toughest things on the oil system and the Priius has a stop-start system so it has to be designed for a lot of hot-starts.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
dino33 - the cars in your signature don't need a "high flow" oil filter. I doubt those engines put out more than 5~6 GPM at redline. Any known name brand oil filter will flow tons more than those engines can produce.


I wouldn't be so sure. Subaru 4 cyls are well known to produce over 12 GPM, the humble 1.8l "R18" in my Honda Civic puts out 13.8 GPM at redline according to the service manual. The K20 2.0l in the Civic Si puts out 14.3 GPM at 6,000 RPM and redlines at a screaming 8,000 RPM, which translates to ~19 GPM at redline. That's three engines from two Asian manufacturers. I wouldn't be surprised if Toyotas were of similar design.


I just said this in another thread, but it applies here too:

The unknown about these oil pump flow specs ... is that with no restriction of the engine on the pump's outlet, or is that the actual flow going through the engine's oiling system? If it's just the output of the oil pump without the restriction of the oiling system, then the actual flow through the engine could be less.

I highly doubt anyone has independently measured the flow rate, so the factory spec is open to interpretation IMO.

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Quote:
There has been a long running internet myth that Purolators are "restrictive" ... I say not.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451


I agree that Purolators aren't any more restrictive than any other aftermarket filter, but if the Amsoil chart of the Toyota and Honda filters is to be believed we have to believe one of two things; either they have really lousy media (doubtful) or they place a high priority on flow over efficiency.


They do have lousy, ineffective filtering media. The ISO test that was ran is THE test standard for efficiency. Amsoil is only reporting what the ISO test result was. If they fausly report the actual data, they open themselves up to lawsuit action from Honda and Toyota for making their products look inferior.

 

[gpshumway]

The media is "lousy" from an efficiency perspective, that is it doesn't capture a high percentage of 20-30 micron particles, but I've yet to see comprehensive flow testing of aftermarket vs OEM filters, especially flow testing of loaded media. Everybody knows particles below a certain size have little effect on wear, so it's entirely reasonable to filter down to the critical size and no lower in order to minimize filter bypass events.

Many owners of Asian vehicles report start-up noise with aftermarket filters, the recent TSB from Hyundai being the latest example. I tend not to think it's coincidence.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Everybody knows particles below a certain size have little effect on wear, so it's entirely reasonable to filter down to the critical size and no lower in order to minimize filter bypass events.


Per the technical papers on engine wear vs. particle size, it's the particles below 25 microns that do the most damage.

http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbullet...gine%20wear.pdf

"Small particles are particles measuring between
5 and 25 microns. Small particles are of greatest concern
because they can penetrate the clearances between
wear-sensitive components and promote accelerated
wear. And, because they are so small, they
are difficult to remove from the oil stream."

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Check out this TSB from Amsoil:
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/filtration/tsb fl-2009-05-01 eao toyota.pdf

This is not news.


In the TSB it said:
"However, if the filter reaches maximum capacity, the level of restriction can become significant enough to trigger the oil pressure warning light. In extreme situations, oil starvation could occur."

After reading the above TSB and it's talking about the oil light coming on (I'm assuming at idle), but what I don't get is that regardless if the filter is clogged up and the filter's bypass valve opens, with a positive displacement oil pump the same oil volume should be getting to the engine as long as the pump isn't in pressure relief, and therefore the engine's oil pressure shouldn't really change.

That is, IF the bypass valve is big enough to not become a major restriction and choke down the flow enough to make the oil pump go into pressure relief. But, who knows ... maybe some of these vehicles have something beside a positive displacement oil pump ... ???




I concur with Zee.

This condition should not trigger low flow, if the bypass is operating properly. The only "risk" would be unfiltered oil, not a no-flow or low-flow condition.

Or ...

The filter specs from the engine OEM are undersized. In that case, it could NEVER be the fault of the filter if the OEM did not engineer a properly sized and adequate filter and bypass.


Typical OEM; blame other components because it's easy to do, and very few folks are smart enough or motivated to actually challenge the rhetoric.