A car over 5 years old is not worth the kind of repair you are facing unless the car is a favorite and you are going to keep it at least another 5 years. A favorite keeper does not face the financial responsibility of a regular family daily driver. With the new safety devices on newer cars and reasonable financing available you now have a project on your hands, picking a new or used car. If you look around half as hard as you would work replacing your engine you will find something.
Timing Belt Slipped-Engine Wrecked, Worth Saving?
- Thread starter Ramjet Roger
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sorry but thats not a chrysler motor, its a mitsubishi motor. and its not known to be an oil "eater" as you say.
ive got 180K on mine and it hasnt used half a quart on this current oil, of which i am at 6K miles.
What the book value of the car and what is the cost for a used engine (including some value for your time). It needs to be a financial decision to fix or junk. I doubt you want to rebuild it unless you do a full rebuild tearing everything out and replacing.
I'd almost have to go with dwend44 on this one. If you can't do that, then your looking at some serious bucks, then I'd call it a loss and throw in the towel. I think cleaning it alone is going to be one of the worst nightmares. If just one little micron of metal gets left in there and it gets trapped in the crankshaft bearings, your back to square one with they start floating.
I've got a 97 Sebring 'vert, 2.5l with 178K miles. Uses 1 quart every 3k on an ~10k OCI with PP.
Get a 3.5 or a 3.0 and drop it in there and wake that car up.
Get a 3.5 or a 3.0 and drop it in there and wake that car up.
Sorry about your luck. Realy sucks to have had this happen.
Given the amount of metal floating around this engine, a complete teardown would probably be needed, which will not be cheap or easy.
How much does an exchange engine cost? Some are remarkably inexpensive, SBCs, for example.
Since this is a Mitsu, unless I am sadly mistaken, can you obtain a cheap Japanese take-out, which will likely be pretty good?
What can your local yards offer? Is there a wrecked, low miles car you can get an engine out of for reasonable dollars?
Remember, you can probably put this puppy back on the road for less than 2K, which means that you are way ahead if you can drive it more than another 20K. Ignore what the naysayers tell you of the car's book value. If it suits you, and you are willing to drive it for enough miles, fix it. Also, bear in mind that its current value is zero.
Finally, the internet is your best friend in these situations. Check around for engines, parts, as well as specialized boards where you may be able to find the perfect engine for reasonable money.
Given the amount of metal floating around this engine, a complete teardown would probably be needed, which will not be cheap or easy.
How much does an exchange engine cost? Some are remarkably inexpensive, SBCs, for example.
Since this is a Mitsu, unless I am sadly mistaken, can you obtain a cheap Japanese take-out, which will likely be pretty good?
What can your local yards offer? Is there a wrecked, low miles car you can get an engine out of for reasonable dollars?
Remember, you can probably put this puppy back on the road for less than 2K, which means that you are way ahead if you can drive it more than another 20K. Ignore what the naysayers tell you of the car's book value. If it suits you, and you are willing to drive it for enough miles, fix it. Also, bear in mind that its current value is zero.
Finally, the internet is your best friend in these situations. Check around for engines, parts, as well as specialized boards where you may be able to find the perfect engine for reasonable money.
Well, here's a bit more background:
THE CAR:
I bought the car used for $3000 about 6 months ago. It is for my son for use as a daily driver commuting to a local college. I expected it to last at least 5-7 years till he can afford his own.
Overall it was in very good condition. The leather interior was spotless and almost new. The body was in good shape with no rust and some minor body damage that was not very noticeable. The trans shifted great and the motor ran strong with zero oil consumption over a 3,200 mile OCI.
I put around $1,500 into it for new parts and tools--water pump, belts, plugs, plug wires, belts, trans flushes, gaskets, seals, timing belt, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, hoses, new coolant, PCV, etc. Essentially, every wear item that I could get to and looked like it might be nearing the end of its service life. My goal was to have it run for another 100k miles with just normal maintenance.
REPLACING THE TIMING BELT:
I personally replaced the timing belt and am willing to concede that I screwed up. I just can't figure out what went wrong. I used a Gates timing belt kit. This included a new tensioner and idler pulley. I purchased the special tools to to adjust the tension per specs.
I verified the alignment marks on the camshaft and crankshaft pulleys were dead-on. However, I adjusted the tensioner without an inch-pound bar-type torque wrench. Instead I adjusted the tension to the point that the holding pin on the hydraulic tensioner could be easily retracted--that was a verification step described in the Chrysler service manual. I verified the belt tension on the slack side--coming down from the rear camshaft pulley into the tensioner pulley--was no more then 1/4-3/8 inch of deflection. Rotated the engine with the starter for a few seconds and then reverified the alignments. All were dead-on.
THE INCIDENT:
My son told me he was starting off from a light and was probably rev'ing the engine to around 3,500 rpm. He heard a strange sound and the engine died. He had no power boost on the brakes. He tried cranking the engine, but it wouldn't turnover. I called AAA and had the car towed to my house.
I pulled the timing belt covers and observed that the rear camshaft sprocket was now 3 teeth/notches retarded. The front sprocket was dead-on. The slack-side of the belt now had close to 1/2 inch of deflection, but still seemed very tight.
It's clear something slipped. But, I can't tell if the belt jumped 1 notch or 2 once the contact happened, or earlier. I did get 2 consecutive P1072 (overly rich) CELs--2 weeks apart. According to the service manual the primary suspect was a faulty O2 sensor and secondary was valve timing. I replaced the O2 sensor on the hope it was the cause and decided not to check the valve timing cause it's a real PITA to do on this engine (at least 3-4 hours of work. In retrospect, a poor choice on my part.
NEXT STEPS:
After seeing everybody's response I'm considering replacing the motor with a used motor from a www.car-part.com junkyard. It looks like I can get a decent motor around $800-$1200 with relatively low mileage. I would do the work myself in my driveway. So I'll need to add money for tools (rental & purchase) and figure out how to drop an engine from the bottom--thinking about a lift dropping onto a dolly, jack up the car real high and slide it out. Total cost might be in the $1,000 to $1,500 range.
That would provide my son a working car for at least another few years. May be till he's out of college and can afford something else.
OR, I just junk it and try for another $3,000 dollar car. Money is tight so $1000 looks a lot better than $3000, but my wife is unconvinced of my mechanical abilities and she's lobbying for the replacement car. She always helps my ego out when I need it most, LOL...
THE CAR:
I bought the car used for $3000 about 6 months ago. It is for my son for use as a daily driver commuting to a local college. I expected it to last at least 5-7 years till he can afford his own.
Overall it was in very good condition. The leather interior was spotless and almost new. The body was in good shape with no rust and some minor body damage that was not very noticeable. The trans shifted great and the motor ran strong with zero oil consumption over a 3,200 mile OCI.
I put around $1,500 into it for new parts and tools--water pump, belts, plugs, plug wires, belts, trans flushes, gaskets, seals, timing belt, tensioner pulley, idler pulley, hoses, new coolant, PCV, etc. Essentially, every wear item that I could get to and looked like it might be nearing the end of its service life. My goal was to have it run for another 100k miles with just normal maintenance.
REPLACING THE TIMING BELT:
I personally replaced the timing belt and am willing to concede that I screwed up. I just can't figure out what went wrong. I used a Gates timing belt kit. This included a new tensioner and idler pulley. I purchased the special tools to to adjust the tension per specs.
I verified the alignment marks on the camshaft and crankshaft pulleys were dead-on. However, I adjusted the tensioner without an inch-pound bar-type torque wrench. Instead I adjusted the tension to the point that the holding pin on the hydraulic tensioner could be easily retracted--that was a verification step described in the Chrysler service manual. I verified the belt tension on the slack side--coming down from the rear camshaft pulley into the tensioner pulley--was no more then 1/4-3/8 inch of deflection. Rotated the engine with the starter for a few seconds and then reverified the alignments. All were dead-on.
THE INCIDENT:
My son told me he was starting off from a light and was probably rev'ing the engine to around 3,500 rpm. He heard a strange sound and the engine died. He had no power boost on the brakes. He tried cranking the engine, but it wouldn't turnover. I called AAA and had the car towed to my house.
I pulled the timing belt covers and observed that the rear camshaft sprocket was now 3 teeth/notches retarded. The front sprocket was dead-on. The slack-side of the belt now had close to 1/2 inch of deflection, but still seemed very tight.
It's clear something slipped. But, I can't tell if the belt jumped 1 notch or 2 once the contact happened, or earlier. I did get 2 consecutive P1072 (overly rich) CELs--2 weeks apart. According to the service manual the primary suspect was a faulty O2 sensor and secondary was valve timing. I replaced the O2 sensor on the hope it was the cause and decided not to check the valve timing cause it's a real PITA to do on this engine (at least 3-4 hours of work. In retrospect, a poor choice on my part.
NEXT STEPS:
After seeing everybody's response I'm considering replacing the motor with a used motor from a www.car-part.com junkyard. It looks like I can get a decent motor around $800-$1200 with relatively low mileage. I would do the work myself in my driveway. So I'll need to add money for tools (rental & purchase) and figure out how to drop an engine from the bottom--thinking about a lift dropping onto a dolly, jack up the car real high and slide it out. Total cost might be in the $1,000 to $1,500 range.
That would provide my son a working car for at least another few years. May be till he's out of college and can afford something else.
OR, I just junk it and try for another $3,000 dollar car. Money is tight so $1000 looks a lot better than $3000, but my wife is unconvinced of my mechanical abilities and she's lobbying for the replacement car. She always helps my ego out when I need it most, LOL...
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it sounds like you did the timing belt correctly. thats how i did mine.
did you replace the hydraulic tensioner? i believe that is to be replaced when doing a timing belt. i repalced mine and the new one was alot tougher to compress than the old one.
did you replace the hydraulic tensioner? i believe that is to be replaced when doing a timing belt. i repalced mine and the new one was alot tougher to compress than the old one.
Good point. I debated spending the extra $70 for the hydraulic tensioner. Since the original looked okay and had no obvious leaks, I thought it was okay to reuse it. I did notice the push rod had extended 1/8-1/4 inch out from the original setting. In fact, it appeared to be near the end of its range (almost fully extended). I attributed it to belt stretch during the first 3k miles. If I had rechecked the timing belt upon the first P1072 CEL, I would have probably reset the tension and the sprocket alignment--oh well...
On Subaru's w/ hydraulic TB tensioner, there is an emphatic caution to only compress the hydraulic tensioner w/ something like 50 lbs of force maximum, requiring a special tool. If you forced the tensioner piston in to insert the restraint pin, you could have damaged the tensioner. I spent about 20 minutes compressing my Subaru tensioner w/ a c-clamp, ~ 1/4 turn, wait 15 seconds, etc till it was finally fully compressed. So far OK.
I recently had a TB incident on my 97 Acura 2.5 TL due to a failed harmonic balancer and incompetent shop help (I couldn't do the work myself due to work load). I was lucky and only the valves were damaged, but it cost ~$1000 to repair the head and reinstall.
I agree w/ a used engine. Suggest buying locally and inspecting the salvage yard and how they store their inventory. Some yards store engines much better than others. Cost vary all over the place, and so does quality.
good luck
I recently had a TB incident on my 97 Acura 2.5 TL due to a failed harmonic balancer and incompetent shop help (I couldn't do the work myself due to work load). I was lucky and only the valves were damaged, but it cost ~$1000 to repair the head and reinstall.
I agree w/ a used engine. Suggest buying locally and inspecting the salvage yard and how they store their inventory. Some yards store engines much better than others. Cost vary all over the place, and so does quality.
good luck
That just plain sucks, bud. Adding up your estimate for the replacement engine and tool rental, I feel like you may be beating a dead horse. Maybe momma is right on this one. Dropping a front wheel drive engine is a lot of work. Your talking about engine, transmission, front suspension, all the hoses, wiring, etc. etc. then getting enough clearance to actually drop it and slide it out will require something other than some jack stands and with that kind of rigging, you got to be careful something doesn't slip and it crashes down on you. Maybe you can find another exact car and swap out all the new parts you put in and then sell the old one for scrap metal. Surely the junk yard will give you something for body/transmission and interior.
Sounds like a decent deal on a used motor. This may be a sore spot now, but may I suggest replacing the t-belt and tensioner while the engine is of the car, prior to installation? Should be easy to do, and you will probably not need to do it again, unless you are real lucky, and the beast outlives the belt, a happy situation.
Based upon what you have posted above, I think you have both the skills, the courage, and the patience to undertake the engine R & R. Good luck, and I am sure the wife will be impressed when you are done.
Based upon what you have posted above, I think you have both the skills, the courage, and the patience to undertake the engine R & R. Good luck, and I am sure the wife will be impressed when you are done.
I say put in a decent used engine. I bought a car for my daughter with a bad engine. It was her first car 96 Taurus.
It was a good bonding experience for us. I hope that it taught her some lessons about repairs and working to get the car on the road.
It sure beats buying a car and handing her the keys. If anything she will have an appreciation for how much work it takes for get a car repaired. And when she has a nicer car in the future she will appreciate what a mechanic does for a living.
I hope she then takes care of that vehicle very well. I will probably be her mechanic.......
It was a good bonding experience for us. I hope that it taught her some lessons about repairs and working to get the car on the road.
It sure beats buying a car and handing her the keys. If anything she will have an appreciation for how much work it takes for get a car repaired. And when she has a nicer car in the future she will appreciate what a mechanic does for a living.
I hope she then takes care of that vehicle very well. I will probably be her mechanic.......
Forgot to say it was pretty cute seeing her in my mechanic overalls.
When in dought change it out...in your case its too late. It depends if you think its worth keeping. If money is tight a good rebuild or new engine is the only way to go.
Well folks, just a short update. After a lot of research, time under the hood, and listening to all this good advice (and my wife's pleadings), I've decided to throw in the towel and junk the car for another used car. My son really likes these Chrysler's (Cirrus and Sebring) so I will be getting another chance at replacing a timing belt real soon now. Next time, I'll replace the hydraulic tensioner AND use an OEM belt. Last time I noticed the Gates belt wouldn't let me align the rear camshaft sprocket exactly on the alignment mark (just about 1/2 a tooth retarded). Since the OEM belt was perfectly aligned, I figured the difference wouldn't affect anything. Probably didn't, but no sense taking the chance. Wish me luck...
I had the same problem with a Gates belt on my Toyota. Not only that, the Gates belt was thicker and a lot less flexible than the OEM, and it kept slipping off the crankshaft pulley when I tried (by myself) to get it up and over the camshaft pulleys. I ended up getting my wife to help, but then the stupid marks would never *quite* line up.
I got frustrated and drove over to the only open dealer on a Saturday afternoon. What a difference! The belt was thinner and MUCH easier to install by myself, AND the marks all lined up perfectly. Like night and day.
I got frustrated and drove over to the only open dealer on a Saturday afternoon. What a difference! The belt was thinner and MUCH easier to install by myself, AND the marks all lined up perfectly. Like night and day.
I will have to keep that dealer belt tip in mind, good to know.
Save all the fasteners off the old engine and whatever else that's usable.
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