Does the original quote warn against higher viscosity AND state that the poster uses Lucas? It sounds like the poster is saying don't use thicker oil but make it thicker with an additive. Am I misreading something?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
thicker oil causes valve seal damage (?)
- Thread starter ericthepig
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Do I really need to use 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil? Truth, NO!
Read on for technical facts regarding the use of 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil.
Ford, Honda and Daimler- Chrysler specify 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil for most gas engine powered cars and light trucks. Is 5W20/0W-20 oil really necessary?
1. Here are the technical facts behind 5W-20 and 0W-20 oil specs:
Question: My owners manual specifies 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do I really need to use 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil and why did my 2000 model year vehicle require a 5W-30 oil, while the exact same engine in my 2001, 2002 and newer engines "requires" a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil?
Answer: NO! You do not need to use a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do not let your dealer scare you by telling you that you have to use 5W-20 oil for your warranty. That is a tactic that some dealerships use to scare customers. Once you know the facts and the Federal Magnusson Moss Act law, you will be much better informed to protect your rights and use the type of fluids you want to use.
The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Honda and Ford's overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.
For better performance and protection we recommend using Signature Series 0W-30 100% Synthetic Motor Oil (SSO). This is the top performing AMSOIL Motor Oil for gasoline powered light trucks and passenger cars. It uses race-proven technology and provides unsurpassed fuel efficiency and better wear protection than other conventional and synthetic motor oils. It is a 35,000 mile/1-year change interval motor oil. Use it in conjunction with AMSOIL's Super Duty Oil Filter's that specify a change interval of 12,500 miles/6-months, whichever comes first.
Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer: Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.*
Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to two independent testing labs for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are numerous certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center.
* Note: If a car or truck dealership, service center or other business states that using AMSOIL motor oil in your vehicle will void your new car warranty, ask for that statement in writing and send it to AMSOIL technical Services. If the business won't provide the statement in writing send AMSOIL Technical Services a letter identifying who made the statement, the name and location of the business and what the statement was. AMSOIL will then send a letter to the business informing them that their position is inaccurate, and, in fact, violates existing law. Your name will be held in confidence.
AMSOIL mailing address: AMSOIL Inc., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880
Read more: http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm#ixzz1RXNx9xT3
http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm
PART 2
Here are some REAL time, as well as, laboratory tested "ultimate" and unchangeable truths:
1. The ideal oil viscosity for motor oil used in conventional piston engine operating at the "normal" engine operating temperature is equivalent to SAE 30. (In range of 9 cSt to 12 cSt @ 100° C)
2. If you use thinner oil (SAE 20) under these "normal" operating conditions there will be LESS resistance to motion due to reduced viscosity, and therefore BETTER Fuel Economy will result.
This gain in fuel economy does not however occur without costs.
1. Increase in oil consumption due to lower viscosity. Can be offset by better seals (they cost more)
2. Increase in oil consumption due to higher volatility. Can be offset by synthetics (they cost more)
3. Decrease in Engine service life due to increased boundary wear under some operating conditions
(this will cost more per mile driven or per engine operating hour)
3. If you use thicker oil (SAE 40 or SAE 50) under these "normal" operating conditions there will be MORE resistance to motion due to increased viscosity, and therefore WORSE Fuel Economy will result. This LOSS in Fuel Economy is somewhat compensated for by:
1. Decrease in oil consumption due to higher viscosity.
2. Decrease in oil consumption due to lower volatility
3. Increase in Engine service life due to reduced boundary wear and better separation of parts in relative motion.
4. If the ambient or operating temperature is INCREASED from the "ideal" or "normal" (70° F) then the oil viscosity MUST BE INCREASED to assure same level of protection and lubricating oil film integrity.
(It is not just better, but a must to use SAE 40 oil at 100° F ambient and SAE 50 at 120° F ambient)
5. If the load is increased such as when towing, the oil viscosity MUST be increased to assure the same level of protection. (Use SAE 50 when towing)
6. If the engine speed is INCREASED such as during long distance high speed driving in low ambient temperatures (so that the bulk oil temperature is not increased) the oil viscosity could be DECREASED that is SAE 20 is preferred to SAE 30 oil. (This however works ONLY in manual transmission vehicles where vehicle speed and engine speed are proportional and higher RPM can be maintained by more frequent downshifts if necessary)
7. If the load is decreased then the oil viscosity can be DECREASED
(When Empty Tractor is driven at 70 MPH on Interstate, it is OK to use SAE 30 instead of the SAE 40 that is specified and appropriate when the Tractor is hauling maximum load at 55 MPH)
8. The most important factor related to long-term engine durability and component wear seems to be:
High-Temperature / High-Shear-Rate specification shown in the last column of the SAE J300 Standard.
For SAE 20 oil it is 2.6cP minimum.
For SAE 30 oil it is 2.9cP minimum.
For SAE 40 oil there are two specifications 2.9 cP same as SAE 30 and 3.7 cP which is the same for SAE 50 and SAE 60, but why? Well the first specification is for light-duty engines (cars that are not expected to last beyond 70,000 to 150,000 miles) and the second for heavy duty engines (that is engines which are expected to last up to 1,000,000 miles). That is why oils which are labeled as HD or Heavy-duty must satisfy the second SAE 40 specification of 3.7 cP.
OK the final scoop on SAE 5W-20 and SAE 0W-20 oils:
You will definitely get better mileage with SAE 5W-20 then SAE 5W-30 oil, but not by much, usually the optimistic estimates are LESS than 1%. The bad news is about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years).
Only manufacturers who have 3 years or 36,000 miles powertrain warranties currently recommend
SAE 5W-20 oil to be used in their NEW 2000 through 2006 model vehicles (FORD, HONDA).
By contrast Mercedes-Benz that offered 4 years or 50,000 miles warranty not only specified
SAE 5W-40 motor oil, but in the USA, to assure that only that oil grade was used, provided periodic maintenance FREE to all its customers. (Free maintenance was offered by Mercedes-Benz from 2000 model years through 2004 model year, it was cancelled on 2005 model cars and SUV's)
ALL heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend SAE 40, SAE 15W-40 or SAE 5W-40 oil.
FINAL choice is yours, you can get BETTER mileage, or LONGER engine life.
Read on for technical facts regarding the use of 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil.
Ford, Honda and Daimler- Chrysler specify 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil for most gas engine powered cars and light trucks. Is 5W20/0W-20 oil really necessary?
1. Here are the technical facts behind 5W-20 and 0W-20 oil specs:
Question: My owners manual specifies 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do I really need to use 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil and why did my 2000 model year vehicle require a 5W-30 oil, while the exact same engine in my 2001, 2002 and newer engines "requires" a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil?
Answer: NO! You do not need to use a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do not let your dealer scare you by telling you that you have to use 5W-20 oil for your warranty. That is a tactic that some dealerships use to scare customers. Once you know the facts and the Federal Magnusson Moss Act law, you will be much better informed to protect your rights and use the type of fluids you want to use.
The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Honda and Ford's overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.
For better performance and protection we recommend using Signature Series 0W-30 100% Synthetic Motor Oil (SSO). This is the top performing AMSOIL Motor Oil for gasoline powered light trucks and passenger cars. It uses race-proven technology and provides unsurpassed fuel efficiency and better wear protection than other conventional and synthetic motor oils. It is a 35,000 mile/1-year change interval motor oil. Use it in conjunction with AMSOIL's Super Duty Oil Filter's that specify a change interval of 12,500 miles/6-months, whichever comes first.
Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?
Answer: Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.*
Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to two independent testing labs for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are numerous certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center.
* Note: If a car or truck dealership, service center or other business states that using AMSOIL motor oil in your vehicle will void your new car warranty, ask for that statement in writing and send it to AMSOIL technical Services. If the business won't provide the statement in writing send AMSOIL Technical Services a letter identifying who made the statement, the name and location of the business and what the statement was. AMSOIL will then send a letter to the business informing them that their position is inaccurate, and, in fact, violates existing law. Your name will be held in confidence.
AMSOIL mailing address: AMSOIL Inc., AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880
Read more: http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm#ixzz1RXNx9xT3
http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm
PART 2
Here are some REAL time, as well as, laboratory tested "ultimate" and unchangeable truths:
1. The ideal oil viscosity for motor oil used in conventional piston engine operating at the "normal" engine operating temperature is equivalent to SAE 30. (In range of 9 cSt to 12 cSt @ 100° C)
2. If you use thinner oil (SAE 20) under these "normal" operating conditions there will be LESS resistance to motion due to reduced viscosity, and therefore BETTER Fuel Economy will result.
This gain in fuel economy does not however occur without costs.
1. Increase in oil consumption due to lower viscosity. Can be offset by better seals (they cost more)
2. Increase in oil consumption due to higher volatility. Can be offset by synthetics (they cost more)
3. Decrease in Engine service life due to increased boundary wear under some operating conditions
(this will cost more per mile driven or per engine operating hour)
3. If you use thicker oil (SAE 40 or SAE 50) under these "normal" operating conditions there will be MORE resistance to motion due to increased viscosity, and therefore WORSE Fuel Economy will result. This LOSS in Fuel Economy is somewhat compensated for by:
1. Decrease in oil consumption due to higher viscosity.
2. Decrease in oil consumption due to lower volatility
3. Increase in Engine service life due to reduced boundary wear and better separation of parts in relative motion.
4. If the ambient or operating temperature is INCREASED from the "ideal" or "normal" (70° F) then the oil viscosity MUST BE INCREASED to assure same level of protection and lubricating oil film integrity.
(It is not just better, but a must to use SAE 40 oil at 100° F ambient and SAE 50 at 120° F ambient)
5. If the load is increased such as when towing, the oil viscosity MUST be increased to assure the same level of protection. (Use SAE 50 when towing)
6. If the engine speed is INCREASED such as during long distance high speed driving in low ambient temperatures (so that the bulk oil temperature is not increased) the oil viscosity could be DECREASED that is SAE 20 is preferred to SAE 30 oil. (This however works ONLY in manual transmission vehicles where vehicle speed and engine speed are proportional and higher RPM can be maintained by more frequent downshifts if necessary)
7. If the load is decreased then the oil viscosity can be DECREASED
(When Empty Tractor is driven at 70 MPH on Interstate, it is OK to use SAE 30 instead of the SAE 40 that is specified and appropriate when the Tractor is hauling maximum load at 55 MPH)
8. The most important factor related to long-term engine durability and component wear seems to be:
High-Temperature / High-Shear-Rate specification shown in the last column of the SAE J300 Standard.
For SAE 20 oil it is 2.6cP minimum.
For SAE 30 oil it is 2.9cP minimum.
For SAE 40 oil there are two specifications 2.9 cP same as SAE 30 and 3.7 cP which is the same for SAE 50 and SAE 60, but why? Well the first specification is for light-duty engines (cars that are not expected to last beyond 70,000 to 150,000 miles) and the second for heavy duty engines (that is engines which are expected to last up to 1,000,000 miles). That is why oils which are labeled as HD or Heavy-duty must satisfy the second SAE 40 specification of 3.7 cP.
OK the final scoop on SAE 5W-20 and SAE 0W-20 oils:
You will definitely get better mileage with SAE 5W-20 then SAE 5W-30 oil, but not by much, usually the optimistic estimates are LESS than 1%. The bad news is about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years).
Only manufacturers who have 3 years or 36,000 miles powertrain warranties currently recommend
SAE 5W-20 oil to be used in their NEW 2000 through 2006 model vehicles (FORD, HONDA).
By contrast Mercedes-Benz that offered 4 years or 50,000 miles warranty not only specified
SAE 5W-40 motor oil, but in the USA, to assure that only that oil grade was used, provided periodic maintenance FREE to all its customers. (Free maintenance was offered by Mercedes-Benz from 2000 model years through 2004 model year, it was cancelled on 2005 model cars and SUV's)
ALL heavy-duty engine manufacturers recommend SAE 40, SAE 15W-40 or SAE 5W-40 oil.
FINAL choice is yours, you can get BETTER mileage, or LONGER engine life.
ericthepig
Thread starter
Isn't that an old Amsoil FAQ sheet. Amsoil no longer recommends the 6mo/12k filter change (or am I mistaken), and that FAQ is pushing their "signature series 0w30" for a w20 app. Currently Amsoil would push their 0w20.
Good stuff still. Thanks for the post.
Good stuff still. Thanks for the post.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
Makes perfect sense to me. My past three cars I`ve owned (2 3000GT`s and 1 300ZX) have said in the owner`s manuals to use a 30 weight for fuel economy only,and a 40 weight or higher if you race or drive extended high speeds. It says *DO NOT* use a 20 weight under any circumstance.
Originally Posted By: ericthepig
Isn't that an old Amsoil FAQ sheet. Amsoil no longer recommends the 6mo/12k filter change (or am I mistaken), and that FAQ is pushing their "signature series 0w30" for a w20 app. Currently Amsoil would push their 0w20.
Good stuff still. Thanks for the post.
It's a load of bull, and it's technically incorrect. Using the incorrect viscosity absolutely could void your warranty. This was seemingly written by someone who at the time wasn't selling a suitable lubricant...
In reading through that thing, there's a staggering amount of misinformation presented.
Isn't that an old Amsoil FAQ sheet. Amsoil no longer recommends the 6mo/12k filter change (or am I mistaken), and that FAQ is pushing their "signature series 0w30" for a w20 app. Currently Amsoil would push their 0w20.
Good stuff still. Thanks for the post.
It's a load of bull, and it's technically incorrect. Using the incorrect viscosity absolutely could void your warranty. This was seemingly written by someone who at the time wasn't selling a suitable lubricant...
In reading through that thing, there's a staggering amount of misinformation presented.
ericthepig
Thread starter
Originally Posted By: JOD
It's a load of bull,
My first reading of the post was only partial. I thought I was reading old Amsoil material and had seen it all. I just re-read part of the post and realized it's indeed not fully accurate.
It's a load of bull,
My first reading of the post was only partial. I thought I was reading old Amsoil material and had seen it all. I just re-read part of the post and realized it's indeed not fully accurate.
Oil viscosity has nothing to do with wearing out valve seals. What kills valve seals is age.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Manuals given with cars state that oil changes should be more frequent with E85. So we can clearly see the results of any alcohol [even E10] is not good.
It diminishes the lubricity of pure gasoline - the fuel pump is the main part hard hit.
Those E85 cars/trucks are just for tree huggers that think they are doing something good by owning one. They get horrible gas mileage and you don't save any money in the long run.
Manuals given with cars state that oil changes should be more frequent with E85. So we can clearly see the results of any alcohol [even E10] is not good.
It diminishes the lubricity of pure gasoline - the fuel pump is the main part hard hit.
Those E85 cars/trucks are just for tree huggers that think they are doing something good by owning one. They get horrible gas mileage and you don't save any money in the long run.
Originally Posted By: pavelow
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Manuals given with cars state that oil changes should be more frequent with E85. So we can clearly see the results of any alcohol [even E10] is not good.
It diminishes the lubricity of pure gasoline - the fuel pump is the main part hard hit.
Those E85 cars/trucks are just for tree huggers that think they are doing something good by owning one. They get horrible gas mileage and you don't save any money in the long run.
And you are taking materials usually used to for food production and making them into fuel, driving up food prices for everyone. So its harder on stuff, less efficient, and in the end costs more in subsidies, poor fuel mileage, wear and tear, and driving up food.
Ethanol as it is, is a bad idea in almost every way. Unless you are a farmer, then it sure makes your corn worth more.
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Manuals given with cars state that oil changes should be more frequent with E85. So we can clearly see the results of any alcohol [even E10] is not good.
It diminishes the lubricity of pure gasoline - the fuel pump is the main part hard hit.
Those E85 cars/trucks are just for tree huggers that think they are doing something good by owning one. They get horrible gas mileage and you don't save any money in the long run.
And you are taking materials usually used to for food production and making them into fuel, driving up food prices for everyone. So its harder on stuff, less efficient, and in the end costs more in subsidies, poor fuel mileage, wear and tear, and driving up food.
Ethanol as it is, is a bad idea in almost every way. Unless you are a farmer, then it sure makes your corn worth more.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Similar threads
- Replies
- 2
- Views
- 866
- Replies
- 26
- Views
- 5K
- Replies
- 40
- Views
- 1K
- Replies
- 60
- Views
- 6K