The reliability hoax...

[ryansride2017]

"Nissan is not a "quality import" anymore"

Speaking of 2007 vehicle quality:

While Nissan is not up to the quality of Honda and Toyota (Tier 1), they definitely fall into Tier 2 with Mazda and Subaru and are a step ahead of Tier 3 made up of Ford, G.M. and Chrysler. Hopefully things change in the future.

BTW, I don't know enough about the European vehicles to rank them.

 

[ryansride2017]

I tend to buy Nissan vehicles because they give me an above average quality vehicle for a reasonable price. Honda and Toyota produce good vehicles....and they know it. A good number of the dealerships won't haggle much. You can haggle with a Nissan dealership for true vehicle cost while still getting a better quality vehicle than Ford or G.M., on average.

 

[JHZR2]

Quote:

---

Combine that with the depreciation hits "domestic" makes take when compared with a Honda or Toyota and it just doesn't seem to make financial sense to buy a NEW domestic car today.

---

Depreciation is a loser's game regardless of make or model. It doesnt make financial sense to sell ANY car with less than 10 years or 200k miles on it, and it makes even less sense to buy a used toyota or honda, to save $2-3000 for a 3+ year old car with over 36k miles on it.

JMH

 

[javacontour]

Quote:

---

^^^ You'll hear every excuse in the book for why to not buy American. Maybe when the massive national debt and foreign trade deficits actually affect them they will wake up and see the light. American made products are competitive in every way and when they get quality awards you'll hear different excuses from the import lovers.. Some folkds you just can't reach.

---

I gave concrete reasons and they are called excuses and I'm the one who is called hard to reach.

Cousincletus, your mild attack against people, instead of making a case for your view may indicate that opposing arguments are hard to refute.

What you judge as excuses, I call rational reasons to make a choice different from yours.

You may choose to buy American, and I'm ok with that. I don't derive some feeling of being superior based on what I buy or don't buy.

I don't need to tacitly call names or to say that others who hold opposite views are "unreachable" to feel good about myself and my purchases.

If what you buy works for you, then I'm am happy for your. Personally, I feel there are better choices for me and my family, and I've made them. If what you buy is what you believe is the best choice, then that should be satisfying enough that you don't have to denigrate those who make other choices.

 

[javacontour]

We don't have many elevation changes relative to VA, but we do have curves here in IL.

I'm glad your Contour performed well. I loved the way the ones I owned drove. I just didn't care for all the nickle and dime repairs on either of them.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

When I compare that to my 1996 Ford Contour that needed a new wheel bearing and a MAF cleaning in the first 60K miles

---

That's the funny thing..neither my 1995 Ford Contour (now with 174K on it) nor my 1996 Ford Contour (now with 145K on it) (I don't own either of them anymore but I know who does), ever needed a wheel bearing or a MAF cleaning. (I did clean the MAF on both of them but well after 100K miles and it wasn't required, just PM).

And I'll wager that the roads in Virginia are just a little harder on wheel bearings (and power steering systems, for that matter) than they are in Illinois, because they actually curve, sometimes quite a bit

---

 

[javacontour]

True, the cheapest car to drive is usually the one you already own, regardless of who makes it.

My Geo Prizm is right at $0.13/mile to drive after 91K miles, including the $2500 purchase price and is weeks away from 200K miles on the clock.

I believe probably the best value for a car is either the 2-3 year old used domestic with under 50K miles on it that you can pick up for close to 1/2 of it's new price, or $2K-3K 100K mile beaters you can buy and drive for another 100K+ miles.

Since I drive about 40K miles/year, I like to have a couple of cars.

I forgot to mention my T-Bird, a 1995 with 50K fewer miles than the Geo Prizm. Even as a RWD car, it too had an independent rear suspension like the Prizm, but with many more creaks and groans compared to the creak and groan free older, more used Prizm.

So, given my experience, the Toyota based products have been far less troublesome than the Ford and GM products I've owned.

I don't expect your arguments to convince me, and I could really care less if my experiences sway you.

But I am sending the message loud and clear that I've compared my personal experiences with GM, Ford, Mazda and Toyota, and Toyota and Mazda has been much better for me than has GM and Ford. I've had new and used offerings from all except for Mazda, where I've only owned new, and until I'm firmly convinced that I'll have a different experience with GM or Ford, or if my experience with Toyota should drastically change, I believe I'll keep going with what appears to be working the best for me.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Combine that with the depreciation hits "domestic" makes take when compared with a Honda or Toyota and it just doesn't seem to make financial sense to buy a NEW domestic car today.

---

Depreciation is a loser's game regardless of make or model. It doesnt make financial sense to sell ANY car with less than 10 years or 200k miles on it, and it makes even less sense to buy a used toyota or honda, to save $2-3000 for a 3+ year old car with over 36k miles on it.

JMH

---

 

[brianl703]

Quote:

---

We don't have many elevation changes relative to VA, but we do have curves here in IL.

---

Not all that many. IL is a public land state and as a result most roads are as straight as an arrow since they are at the boundaries of the 40-acre plots or subdivisions thereof.

Nothing so scientific or sensible resulted in the routing of most of Virginia's roads.

As far as the Contour, in the 70,000 miles I owned it the 1996 needed a water pump and an alternator (which was actually killed by a bad battery). It also needed motor mounts and sway bar links as well as an upstream oxygen sensor, but those are wear items. That doesn't seem excessive to me. Incidentally, the water pump started weeping--it didn't have an impeller failure.

 

[01rangerxl]

My experiences with vehicles belonging to myself, relatives, and close friends (meaning I saw this stuff first hand)...

2002 Ford Ranger V6/AT/2WD - The boot on one tie rod end split at 32,000 miles...it was probably caused by abuse, but maybe there was damage from the factory, so I will throw it in. The original plastic tail gate handle also broke. Replaced with a $5 metal one for a '90s F-Series. Absolutely no rattles or fit and finish problems, perfect mechanicals. Vehicle currently has 39,000 miles. Has missed a couple oil changes, most other maintenence done on schedule.

2001 Ford Ranger I4/MT/2WD - Had to replace plastic tail gate handle. $5 repair. One tail gate strap also showed signs of rust, probably from damage to the plastic coating, but I will include it anyway. Another $5. Truck currently has 83,000 miles. No fit and finish issues. Does not leak one drop of oil. It did use some oil (less than 1 quart) when I first switched to synthetic at 75,000 miles, but that stopped. No mechanical problems ever. Has been taken off road several times and stuck in mud up to the doors. Poorly maintained and abused until 48,000 miles. Maintenence has been much better since.

2004 Honda Civic Hybrid I4/CVT - Interior rattles started at around 20,000 miles and have become louder over time. Periodic burning smells started recently at 25,000 miles. Air bag light would come on at random, but that stopped. Some interior peices do not fit correctly. Car is driven with care and sees nearly all highway driving with no rough roads. Perfect maintenence history.

1998 Ford Contour V6/AT - Check engine light came on at 74,000 miles. The car was totalled by a Jeep Cherokee before diagnosis could be done. Steering wheel showed some wear, otherwise it was perfect. Near perfect maintenence.

1990 Ford Taurus V6/AT - Automatic transmission self destructed at 100,000 miles. Otherwise perfect, even with my sister running it into brick walls. Near perfect maintenence.

1993 Nissan Quest V6/AT - Passenger side window went off track when new, rear A/C broke in two years, motor mounts broke, $1000 repair bills became common by 80,000 miles. Ford parts, such as the radio, never failed. Nissan parts could be counted on to fail. Near perfect maintenence.

1986 Ford Ranger I4/MT/2WD - Ignition switch needed replacement at 100,000 miles. Shift knob fell off at about the same time. Some maintenence may have been done to this truck.

2001 Toyota Solara I4/AT - Engine failed at 60,000 miles, IIRC due to a timing belt failure. Replacement engine failed with 75,000 miles on the car (true mileage of the engine itself was unknown though). Some minor interior fit and finish issues. Otherwise it had no problems. Near perfect maintenence.

1998 Honda Accord I4/AT - Fit and finish was good, but the transmission failed at 80,000 miles. Full maintenence history unknown, but a transmission should still make it to 120,000 at least IMO.

1985 Jeep Cherokee I4/MT/4WD - Developed an appetite for water pumps at around 125,000 miles. Carb was rebuilt at around 125,000 miles as well. Other than that it was trouble free. It was taken off road regularly and was maintained well.

If you read all of that, you can see that EVERYTHING has problems and quality control issues. In my experience the domestic vehicles have generally been somewhat less problematic, but they ALL have their bad days.

 

[Auto-Union]

My criteria to say if I like a car is if I WON it in a raffle, I'd keep it. This brings a lot more cars into the fold than the ones I'd buy for my own use. Take a BMW, if I won one, I'd keep it...but not go buy one. Anyway, there is not a single Domestic car I'd keep to drive if I won it, Vibe excluded. fwiw, my parent's last Domestic car was a Chevette. I can show costs of keeping ~nice~ Euro cars on the road for $.05c/mi and another $.10c for depereciation. A lot of DIY, but...nevertheless.

 

[Warlord]

Why would you never keep a domestic vehicle? Your loss I guess, there are alot of great domestic vehicles.

 

[cousincletus]

Quote:

---

Why would you never keep a domestic vehicle? Your loss I guess, there are alot of great domestic vehicles.

---

He's another one of the unreachables. He can go ahead and send all that American money overseas but like it or not, there are going to be consequences for it. That's the point I'm trying to make but get accused of name calling for speaking the truth. I don't have anything at all against import owners. But I think if they only knew the devastation it will eventually cause our economy they would at least consider a domestic their next car purchase. We can't sustain this massive trade deficit forever. And a car purchase can potentially send tens of thousands of dollars overseas at one time.

 

[JTK]

Quote:

---

Many a person will take their vehicle into the toyota or honda dealer and not bat an eyelash at their required 24, 36, 48k, etc. service... at the same time, people think theyre gtting ripped off when their domestic vehicle dealer tells them that their diff fluid or trans fluid should be changed 3yr/36k.

---

Well said and very true!

Joel

 

[JTK]

Quote:

---

Every 3.1/3.4 in my local sphere of influence has failed. : 2 of mine, one of my sons, two friend at work, one nephew,. Others will be leaking as evidenced by UOA's . But not everyone does UOA's, and when the antifreeze destroys the bearings, you don't notice it anyway because of the built in piston slap.

---

Al, all of these suffered a spun bearing? Wasn't there massive coolant loss preceding this? I've seen lots of failed GM 3.X IMG's, family owned and other, but have only seen one ruined GM 3.X engine from IMG failure waiting for repair on a shop lot. FWIU, owner just kept adding coolant. Same goes with the Ford essex 3.8 and 4.2L. I've seen them spin bearings, but only after they filled their oil sumps with coolant. I guess my point is, the GM IMG issue is inexcusable, but even with mediocre automotive skills, you should notice some symptoms long before coolant related bearing failure on any engine.

Joel

 

[cousincletus]

^^^The one I saw started as an external leak and there was plenty of warning to get it fixed. BTW the job costs no more than a water pump/timing belt job an import.

 

[Ray Garlington]

No offense, but using an initial quality rating to make a case for reliability is silly. Maybe you should take a look at the population of say 10 year old cars and see what is actually still functional and useful.

 

[Al]

[quote Al, all of these suffered a spun bearing? you should notice some symptoms long before coolant related bearing failure on any engine.
Joel

---

I was just making funny.

You're right it is likely that you will get external leakage before there is damage.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Quote:

---

No offense, but using an initial quality rating to make a case for reliability is silly. Maybe you should take a look at the population of say 10 year old cars and see what is actually still functional and useful.

---

Amen. And if you'll look at those 10 year old cars, the domestics outnumber the imports by about 10 to 1. A lot of this has to do with cost of replacement parts, but that too should be a consideration when choosing a car you're planning on keeping for a while.

Dan

 

[Auto-Union]

I'd like to see a study of 10 y/o cars looking at % sold verses % still registered. Should not be hard to do. Hello....old Volvo.

fwiw, Monte Carlo SS....lol.

 

[cousincletus]

I see more old domestics on the road too. Whatever happened to the Datsun Honeybee? Haha. I still see an occasional Chevy Citation. To be fair, an old import I still see a lot of is the Ford Festiva.

 

[javacontour]

I've found information from R.L. Polk that says that 79% of new cars last 10 years or longer.

Does anyone have the data broken down by carmaker to back up the assertion that 10X the number of domestics last 10 years or more as compared to the foreign makes.

FTM makes a pretty strong assertion, but no data provided.

Personally, I'd like to see some data to back up this assertion.