The reliability hoax...

[Gary Allan]

Then it simply comes down to a matter of US cars being passe~ ..as they've always been. I was truly surprised when the Taurus managed to hold on to the basic design for so long. I was sure that it was going to be extinct in a very short amount of time.

One also has to take into account the shear numbers of US autos that were sold compared to the asian designs in the years that formed these opinions. For example the Chrysler minivan transmission issues. It was probably a very low % of units that required rebuild ..yet so many were on the road and continued to be on the road that it represented a high % of unreliability in terms of perception. You never notice the ones that aren't in the shop. (this may not be the best example).

 

[brianl703]

Regarding ECUs--my mechanic said he hasn't seen a bad one in many years.

ECUs are one part I'd happily buy from a junkyard (and have). (It was an upgrade, not a replacement for a bad one).

 

[brianl703]

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You never notice the ones that aren't in the shop. (this may not be the best example).

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My mechanic had a Nissan Altima in for EGR work a few months ago. (I occasionally stop by just to say hi if they're working late, and he sometimes tells me what he's been working on). Just recently he had a Nissan Altima in for a fuel pump. I'm pretty sure it was the same car both times. I don't know what Nissan Altimas are supposed to be for reliability but this one is

 

[Warlord]

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Also refering to Toyota vs GM as Japanese vs American is a bit outdated. Those Toyotas and Hondas are now built in the US with as much or more domestic content than the GM, Ford, or Chrysler.

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Not true in the slightest. There are still many many more spinoff jobs for a ford or gm plant than a yota or honda. All manufacturers are putting out quality products these days. They all have their hits and misses. But even the misses are pretty darn good.

 

[Patman]

I've had good luck with both of my cars, one being an import (2000 Civic) and the other domestic (98 Corvette)

I bought the Civic new and so far the only repair has been a cracked exhaust manifold. It has almost 79k on it now.

I bought the Corvette used in Aug 2004 with 32k on it, and have been driving it daily so it now has 74k on it. So far it has only had two problems, the first one was that the digital display for the climate control went dim, so it needed a new head unit. The second one was that the ECM died, but it was traced to corrosion (the OEM AC Delco battery must've leaked acid onto it when the original owner had it, this is a common problem with the OEM AC Delco that came on the earlier C5s)

 

[Al]

[quote But if you spent serious time behind the wheels of Hondas, Toyotas and Corsicas and Cavaliers, you'll know.

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Did you just compare two global car mfr's to two specific car models?

Care to explain the equality and logic of your comment?

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O.K., I can add a GrandAm, A Ranger, An Acura. And I think I could find some anecdotal evidence (a lot) that would suggest Crysler is not much better. I guess really (for me) the best "proof of pudding" for deciding what car lines are worthy of your $$$$ are hands on personal experiences. May not be scientific or statistically reliable but its the best I can do.

On a follow up note. Its extremely important for me to buy a U.S. made vehicle.

It seemed to me that the U.S had turned the corner in the late 80's (especially G.M.) when they finally solved the problem of making a reliable auto-tranny for their front wheel drive vehicles. But then they layed an even bigger egg by producing an engine that was almost certain to spit out an intake gasket. This engine was their bread and butter engine and they couldn't/wouldn't fix it for 12 years???

 

[47HO]

It seems to me, from observing some of my colleagues, that an entire different mindset is at work regarding maintenance and such with import vs. domestics. For instance, a woman in my office has bought domestics for years, and she has never maintained them properly. Then if there was a problem, she was always complaining about quality. So she finally buys an import. Now she religiously takes it to the dealer for every maintenance item in the book, even paying $600 for a simple 30K checkup! Of course she will not see as many "problems", because she is spending $ before items actually break. And she does not complain.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Then what about that Nissan engine that they keep on using that has to have timing chain guides put in it every 75,000 miles? My sister has a Nissan 240 and just spent 1300 dollars having that mess straightened out, at 92,000 miles. My Ford Escort has 185K on it (and counting)--with no work whatsoever.

And the GM V6's that they used for so many years are fantastic engines. I know of 2 with over 200K on them. Very sturdy. "Almost certain to spit out an intake gasket?"

You're not out of your Christmas eggnog yet, I see...

Dan

 

[Al]

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Then what about that Nissan engine...

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Nissan is not a "quality import" anymore

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And the GM V6's that they used for so many years are fantastic engines.

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You're kidding, right? Hard to believe you haven't noticed that 1991 to 2002 engines are the worst engines GM ever constructed..and that's saying a lot. Every 3.1/3.4 in my local sphere of influence has failed. : 2 of mine, one of my sons, two friend at work, one nephew,. Others will be leaking as evidenced by UOA's . But not everyone does UOA's, and when the antifreeze destroys the bearings, you don't notice it anyway because of the built in piston slap.

 

[H2GURU]

FTM,
I used to subscribe to that theory also, but too many failures of just about any sub-set of parts you can name did fail almost at the instant of warranty run-out, thus cancelling a couple of "free" years. In a story you can relate to I work for a large company that uses many class7 and 8 trucks. Back in 1990 they tried out UD (Nissan) for smaller deliveries and this vehicle was laughed at, at first, but proved to be super efficient and drivers opted for it when given the choice. Its cost per mile was much lower than others of the same class in the fleet and I took note. I realize they don't make class 8 tractors and you won't drive one, but thats my example. Up here in New England vehicles get tortured and I can say my Toyotas have done great for me. Not trying to convert, just giving real world experience. I suspect that domestics quality will improve, but many will never find out as once you are burned, you aren't likely to return.

 

[Drew99GT]

Al, it's not just the 3.1L/3.4L........................We've had FOUR, count em 4 GM vehicles have leaking intake gaskets. 2 S10 Blazers (one, the engine was toast - coolent filled the crankcase), 1 3.4L, and 1 3.8L (which also had a warped plastic upper intake manifold).

That's my personal experience with GM vehicles (along with a host of other things). One of the Blazers is nearing 200,000 miles, so that is some saving grace. But man has it taken a lot to get it that far.

Personal experience is the best indicator and formulator of opinion towards vehicles. There's quite a few people who have had zero problems with domestics and many problems with imports. Just the way it goes.

 

[Win]

My 1999 S-10 (domestic), 2004 GTO (Australian), and 2004 Xj8 (British) have all had zero defects as of this date.

Frankly, I would expect that manufacturing has become so good that the odds are overwhelmingly in a new car buyers favor that whatever he purchases, from any manufacturer, and any place of origin, will be completely defect free.

I would just buy whatever I like, and not give a second thought to whether or not it will be "reliable".

 

[cousincletus]

As Americans I feel we have an obligation to support our industries. Remember, even when an import is slapped together here the profits will still go back to Japan. Plus the domestic parts content is almost always much lower in the import. Very soon we will all start to feel the effect of outsourcing and the foreign trade deficit. Don't think you can send all that money overseas w/o consequences. The quality difference is slight (if any) but one thing is for sure. Domestic parts are cheaper as well as the car itself. In the real world you can buy a Malibu cheaper than a Camry, a Cobalt cheaper than a Civic, etc. There are always choices so you don't have to buy the model with the leaky headgaskets or other known problems. For example, I bought a 2001 Dodge with the manual tranny because of known problems with the automatic (that's a poor example because Dodge is now a foreign owned company but you get my point). The more I research this trade issue the more I care about supporting our domestic industries. My next new pickup will be either a Chevy or Ford.

 

[dima]

"Also refering to Toyota vs GM as Japanese vs American is a bit outdated. Those Toyotas and Hondas are now built in the US with as much or more domestic content than the GM, Ford, or Chrysler. "
Yes, you are right, but on the other hand it has to do with engineering of the product and removal of bean counters from final decision making.

 

[H2GURU]

cus,
The policies of the American companies, squeezing every last penny of profits out of their employees, forcing fifty year old employees out with a lot of good years left, forcing the ones lucky enough to remain on to be over-worked to the point of exhaustion all in the name of bettering the next "quarter" has made many of us to do what is right for us personally as there is NO WHERE else to trim? I need a vehicle with good mileage and I don't have the time to be on a first name basis with the local Ford or Chevy service manager (these guys "service you" like Bonnie & Clyde serviced banks). I gotta' tell ya'... with the performance I've had, it would be a Herculean task for a domestic to get me into their showroom. Not trying to offend anyone here, it is, for me, a fact that the Toyota products have EXCEEDED my expectations. "Only good things for all BITOGERS this season."

 

[fuel tanker man]

H2GURU... you're one of those types I mentioned in my opening post. Matter of fact, you've got it bad!

...sorry to have to point that out for the rest of the board, but you're making it obvious, as you consider it a foregone conclusion that you'd have to be on a first name basis with the local Ford or Chevy service manager.

Most folks know better than to believe such nonsense.

Dan

 

[JHZR2]

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One also has to take into account the shear numbers of US autos that were sold compared to the asian designs in the years that formed these opinions. For example the Chrysler minivan transmission issues. It was probably a very low % of units that required rebuild ..yet so many were on the road and continued to be on the road that it represented a high % of unreliability in terms of perception. You never notice the ones that aren't in the shop. (this may not be the best example).

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Especially given the demographics of people that purchased vehicles like those... more educated, less 'handy' oftentimes, and very willing to believe a preceived notion that was coming on strong (which can be little more than advertising and paid reccomendations of reliability, all the way to real numbers indicating reliability).

Take PM as a great example. In one other section, we were talking about the repair and PM requirements of foreigh vs. domesti vehicles. If 36k diff fluid changes are required on foreign vehicles, why arent they so on a domestic? I think that the number one reason why domestics dont last as well is that the users hold their domestic vehicles to a lesser maintenance standard, which causes them to not last as long...

Many a person will take their vehicle into the toyota or honda dealer and not bat an eyelash at their required 24, 36, 48k, etc. service... at the same time, people think theyre gtting ripped off when their domestic vehicle dealer tells them that their diff fluid or trans fluid should be changed 3yr/36k.

People hold foreign and domestic vehicles to different standards. Say all you want about plastic dashes, generic switchgear, etc for domestic cars, they may be real criteria upon which to judge... but unless there is true apples to apples maintenance, which I propose to be NOT the case, then there cannot be an argument in the longevity category...

At that point, we get to first three year issues, of which the differences are nil...

So in the end all, the true 'longevity' claims are more of a function of user demographics, and not so much what the makers put out.

You can buy junk stuff at wal mart and have it last nearly forever, and you can buy very expensive, high quality stuff from better places, and ruin it in a few years... IMO te same reigns true here.

JMH

 

[javacontour]

I think the most patriotic thing to do is to expect excellence from those who claim to be an American manufacturer.

Doing my patriotic duty means to accept nothing but excellence from the vehicles I buy. So if Toyota or Hyundai can build a car that is equally or more reliable, or a better fit for my family than something offered by DC, Ford or GM, then I AM doing my duty as an American consumer by buying that vehicle.

If I don't send the clear message in the language that all companies understand, in dollars and cents with my purchases, then they will not provide the best products that meet the needs of me and my family.

I'm looking at the track record of my recent Toyota purchases. Oilbabe has a 2002 Camry with a hair under 150K on the clock and the ONLY problem in that time has been a torn CV boot. That was replaced 50K ago, caught it early enough to replace the boot and not the entire axle or joint.

My 1994 Geo Prizm, A car sold by GM, largely a Toyota Corolla, made in Freemont, CA on the NUMMI assembly line has had two faults during my 92K of ownership, a cracked exhaust manifold and either a faulty A/C compressor clutch that took out the harmonic balancer or vice-versa a faulty balancer that took out the compressor clutch. The records from the previous owner indicated a failed alternator somewhere in the first 106K miles.

My Scion tC, with 13,8xx miles as of today, nothing. But I expect nothing to happen in that time period.

When I compare that to my 1996 Ford Contour that needed a new wheel bearing and a MAF cleaning in the first 60K miles, or the 1998 SVT Contour that wouldn't take fuel because of a part in the fuel tank that would stick in a vehicle under 40K miles, or my ex-wife's 91 or 92 Pontiac Sunbird that needed two head gasket replacements and a transmission rebuild in under 70K miles, or my 1987 Buick LeSabre that lunched it's automatic transmission at 90K miles, even with proper maintenance, as well as the bulletproof GM 3.8L V6 jumping timing with 116,850 miles on the clock, not to mention two or three A/C system repairs in the 75K miles I owned the vehicle, all different failures.

When I compare that to the experience with my ex-wife's 2000 Mazda MPV which had ZERO repairs in the 50K she had it until she had her mid-life crisis and traded it for a VW Bug during her affair, or my Toyota product experience, I really have a hard time justifying buying a GM, Ford or DC product right now.

Combine that with the depreciation hits "domestic" makes take when compared with a Honda or Toyota and it just doesn't seem to make financial sense to buy a NEW domestic car today.

They may be smart buys used, and I believe the Geo Prizm got me the best of both worlds, GM used car pricing with the better than average reliability of the GM badged Toyota Corolla.

So, personally, I believe I AM doing the most patriotic thing I can do by sending the message loud and clear that "Detroit" needs to do it better, cheaper and/or in a way that holds value as good or better than their Japanese competitors do, real or imagined.

 

[brianl703]

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When I compare that to my 1996 Ford Contour that needed a new wheel bearing and a MAF cleaning in the first 60K miles

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That's the funny thing..neither my 1995 Ford Contour (now with 174K on it) nor my 1996 Ford Contour (now with 145K on it) (I don't own either of them anymore but I know who does), ever needed a wheel bearing or a MAF cleaning. (I did clean the MAF on both of them but well after 100K miles and it wasn't required, just PM).

And I'll wager that the roads in Virginia are just a little harder on wheel bearings (and power steering systems, for that matter) than they are in Illinois, because they actually curve, sometimes quite a bit

 

[cousincletus]

^^^ You'll hear every excuse in the book for why to not buy American. Maybe when the massive national debt and foreign trade deficits actually affect them they will wake up and see the light. American made products are competitive in every way and when they get quality awards you'll hear different excuses from the import lovers.. Some folkds you just can't reach.