You live your life cowering in your "safe place" and I'll live mine. Boxers forever. There's nothing "immoral" about riding a two wheeler. Lousy choice of words.
Last edited:
The morality of riding a bike married with kids
- Thread starter fdcg27
- Start date
- Status
I started riding in 1969 with rarely another scooter seen on trips and much lighter traffic than today. It many areas these days there is too much population/traffic to have much hope of those safety zones/escape routes we were trained to maintain=they are filled with traffic now. I will NOT ride in such conditions anymore and only now in more light traffic rural areas in daylight with good visibility.
I've been riding since my mother bought me a motorcycle when I was 16 so I could get to work and nightschool. She never expressed any concern about me riding a bike, even after all my prangs, only ever positive. My wife was still riding when pregnant, but had to stop when she got her 1951 Triumph (which she built herself) stuck in a ditch on a gravel road, and couldn't get it out.
In the On the Bones of Our Arse years - kids, mortgage, new house, single income, the bike was even more important, it (or they) were the 2nd car we couldn't afford. My girls got transported to activities on the back of my motorcycle. I've only road raced once, but have done plenty of off road, dirttrack and many years of observed trials. Wife and kids have been spectators to these activities.
I'm 62 now, and last year was commuting by motorcycle in all weathers. Back to a sunny sunday rider now, I get the bike out every couple of weeks for a ride, and am still pushing it - my age flashes up on the visor and I wonder who the kid is on the bike. Sat or sun morning, helmet, jacket and boots by the back door I'm off for a ride, if my wife is awake I might tell her I'm off to test out the lastest mod to my bike, or a rough idea of where I'm headed...last month she said ''What are you going to do when all the roads are sealed?''
I've crashed a lot, on and off road, nothing much to show for it. I've always said, if you're going to crash, you need to practice and get it right. I've certainly never concidered riding to be a burden on my mother, wife or kids, and they have never expressed any concern about me being out there on a bike.
In the On the Bones of Our Arse years - kids, mortgage, new house, single income, the bike was even more important, it (or they) were the 2nd car we couldn't afford. My girls got transported to activities on the back of my motorcycle. I've only road raced once, but have done plenty of off road, dirttrack and many years of observed trials. Wife and kids have been spectators to these activities.
I'm 62 now, and last year was commuting by motorcycle in all weathers. Back to a sunny sunday rider now, I get the bike out every couple of weeks for a ride, and am still pushing it - my age flashes up on the visor and I wonder who the kid is on the bike. Sat or sun morning, helmet, jacket and boots by the back door I'm off for a ride, if my wife is awake I might tell her I'm off to test out the lastest mod to my bike, or a rough idea of where I'm headed...last month she said ''What are you going to do when all the roads are sealed?''
I've crashed a lot, on and off road, nothing much to show for it. I've always said, if you're going to crash, you need to practice and get it right. I've certainly never concidered riding to be a burden on my mother, wife or kids, and they have never expressed any concern about me being out there on a bike.
This is a copy from several years ago here in Pittsburgh PA.
PITTSBURGH —
Officers with the Allegheny County Police Department are remembering one of their own who was killed in a motorcycle accident over the weekend.
Sgt. Perry Vahaly died Saturday when officials said he hit a deer while driving his motorcycle in Rostraver Township.
“His father would be very proud of him. His mother is very proud of him. We’re all very proud of him,” Vahaly’s first cousin Cindy DeMarco said Wednesday.
DeMarco also wanted to remind anyone riding a motorcycle to wear a helmet, something Vahaly wasn’t doing when he crashed.
Vahalay served nearly 17 years with the department. A senior patrol officer who worked with Vahaly said he spoke with the sergeant just hours before the crash.
"What something like this shows is how fragile life actually is," said Chris Swanson.
A memorial has been growing outside of the Allegheny County police barracks in South Park, where Vahaly was stationed.
Vahaly leaves behind a wife and six children.
“He was a friend that people would want to have,” Mark Cook said. “It didn’t matter if I hadn’t seen him in two years or six months, he was a friend.”
Visitation for Vahaly will be held from 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. Thursday and Friday at the Stephen D. Slater Funeral Home in Jefferson Hills.
A funeral service will be held Saturday at 11 a.m. in the Thomas Jefferson High School Auditorium in Jefferson Hills.
PITTSBURGH —
Officers with the Allegheny County Police Department are remembering one of their own who was killed in a motorcycle accident over the weekend.
Sgt. Perry Vahaly died Saturday when officials said he hit a deer while driving his motorcycle in Rostraver Township.
“His father would be very proud of him. His mother is very proud of him. We’re all very proud of him,” Vahaly’s first cousin Cindy DeMarco said Wednesday.
DeMarco also wanted to remind anyone riding a motorcycle to wear a helmet, something Vahaly wasn’t doing when he crashed.
Vahalay served nearly 17 years with the department. A senior patrol officer who worked with Vahaly said he spoke with the sergeant just hours before the crash.
"What something like this shows is how fragile life actually is," said Chris Swanson.
A memorial has been growing outside of the Allegheny County police barracks in South Park, where Vahaly was stationed.
Vahaly leaves behind a wife and six children.
“He was a friend that people would want to have,” Mark Cook said. “It didn’t matter if I hadn’t seen him in two years or six months, he was a friend.”
Visitation for Vahaly will be held from 2 p.m. to 8 p.m. Thursday and Friday at the Stephen D. Slater Funeral Home in Jefferson Hills.
A funeral service will be held Saturday at 11 a.m. in the Thomas Jefferson High School Auditorium in Jefferson Hills.
I always wanted a bike and entertained getting one.
That changed while we were on vacation in Maryland in 2006 and came upon a fresh accident in which a guy was laying dead on the ground with his bike on top of him with the front end of a Dodge Caravan on top of the bike. I've never been able to get that picture out of my mind.
I bought a Mustang convertible instead.
That changed while we were on vacation in Maryland in 2006 and came upon a fresh accident in which a guy was laying dead on the ground with his bike on top of him with the front end of a Dodge Caravan on top of the bike. I've never been able to get that picture out of my mind.
I bought a Mustang convertible instead.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
You live your life cowering in your "safe place" and I'll live mine. Boxers forever. There's nothing "immoral" about riding a two wheeler. Lousy choice of words.
Agree 100% Riding isn't even remotely close to being a "moral" issue; it's simply a matter of how much risk you are willing to accept.
You live your life cowering in your "safe place" and I'll live mine. Boxers forever. There's nothing "immoral" about riding a two wheeler. Lousy choice of words.
Agree 100% Riding isn't even remotely close to being a "moral" issue; it's simply a matter of how much risk you are willing to accept.
Depending on whos numbers you post, the % numbers don't match. People will continue to die doing pretty much everything. Walking, running, driving a car or motorcycle, riding in a plane, dieing in a house fire, having things fall on them. or getting shot. The facts are, we live in a dangerous world. Even the most careful people have things happen to them thru no fault of their own. My father died as a result of being hit by a car while crossing the street, You can only be so careful. I personally knew more people that have been killed in car related accidents then motorcycle accidents. There's no getting away from it, we live in a dangerous world.,,,
Re "moral"
was discussing with a guy at work what's "moral" when it comes to big houses, toys, and debt based financing thereof...and what happens at the end.
We settled where leaving his wife destitute in hopeless debt was immoral, while having enough equity in the assets that while she may not be able to service the debt, she could downsize to a comfortable existance was moral.
I think this is in that continuum.
If it's a toy and a hobby, and you've got enough "stuff" in place that your family could get along OK without you, you're on the moral high ground. If your passing would have them on the street, then it's unfair/immoral...and every person is likely in that gray area between.
was discussing with a guy at work what's "moral" when it comes to big houses, toys, and debt based financing thereof...and what happens at the end.
We settled where leaving his wife destitute in hopeless debt was immoral, while having enough equity in the assets that while she may not be able to service the debt, she could downsize to a comfortable existance was moral.
I think this is in that continuum.
If it's a toy and a hobby, and you've got enough "stuff" in place that your family could get along OK without you, you're on the moral high ground. If your passing would have them on the street, then it's unfair/immoral...and every person is likely in that gray area between.
Knew a kid that killed himself on a test ride while buying his first bike. Seen a lot of carnage, and ALWAYS make transplant jokes whenever I hear a bike go by. Got little kids. I ride.
I prefer to die on the bike than what my mom went through and what my dad is dealing with.
I prefer to die on the bike than what my mom went through and what my dad is dealing with.
Originally Posted By: MCompact
The fatality rate drops significantly when you subtract the unlicensed, drunk/drugged riders, Darwin's assistants(no helmet or other gear), and those that haven't taken the MSF RiderCourse or similar.
Still not as safe as a car, but better odds than a lot of people think.
When I ride I assume I'm invisible- and that any driver that can see me will try to kill me. I assume every oncoming car is going to turn in front of me if it can- and that every car on a side road will pull out on me. I don't crawl along, but I do cover the front brake and roll off the throttle a bit.
It's sad to read of accidents that a little training would probably have prevented- just this week an SUV turned in front of a bike and the rider said he had no choice but to "lay it down." He missed the SUV but hit the curb- killing his pillion rider.
I'd bet the farm he never even touched his front brake lever...
To be fair you would need to do the same for the car accidents - how many are caused by drunk drivers, poor drivers, etc. If both cars and bikes have similar drunk driver etc rates then the 26x factor would still be valid.
In the end even if the accident rate per mile were the same the injury/death rate would be much higher for bikes just due to the lack of protection.
It seems almost every family knows someone who died by motorcycle. Same I our family someone had an accident and was paralyzed and bed ridden for the rest of their lives. But I also knew people killed or seriously injured in car accidents too.
The fatality rate drops significantly when you subtract the unlicensed, drunk/drugged riders, Darwin's assistants(no helmet or other gear), and those that haven't taken the MSF RiderCourse or similar.
Still not as safe as a car, but better odds than a lot of people think.
When I ride I assume I'm invisible- and that any driver that can see me will try to kill me. I assume every oncoming car is going to turn in front of me if it can- and that every car on a side road will pull out on me. I don't crawl along, but I do cover the front brake and roll off the throttle a bit.
It's sad to read of accidents that a little training would probably have prevented- just this week an SUV turned in front of a bike and the rider said he had no choice but to "lay it down." He missed the SUV but hit the curb- killing his pillion rider.
I'd bet the farm he never even touched his front brake lever...
To be fair you would need to do the same for the car accidents - how many are caused by drunk drivers, poor drivers, etc. If both cars and bikes have similar drunk driver etc rates then the 26x factor would still be valid.
In the end even if the accident rate per mile were the same the injury/death rate would be much higher for bikes just due to the lack of protection.
It seems almost every family knows someone who died by motorcycle. Same I our family someone had an accident and was paralyzed and bed ridden for the rest of their lives. But I also knew people killed or seriously injured in car accidents too.
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
Originally Posted By: montero1
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
You think that comparison to motorcycling is truly valid?
Riding a bike is a choice based on fun, enjoyment, thrills...etc. You can't legitimately compare that to being a member of the armed forces or a police officer and so forth.
And the comparison to various habits? Not valid either.
The OP has brought a valid reason not to ride. No reason to disparage him because you disagree. You are free to ride as often as you like.
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
You think that comparison to motorcycling is truly valid?
Riding a bike is a choice based on fun, enjoyment, thrills...etc. You can't legitimately compare that to being a member of the armed forces or a police officer and so forth.
And the comparison to various habits? Not valid either.
The OP has brought a valid reason not to ride. No reason to disparage him because you disagree. You are free to ride as often as you like.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: montero1
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
You think that comparison to motorcycling is truly valid?
Riding a bike is a choice based on fun, enjoyment, thrills...etc. You can't legitimately compare that to being a member of the armed forces or a police officer and so forth.
And the comparison to various habits? Not valid either.
The OP has brought a valid reason not to ride. No reason to disparage him because you disagree. You are free to ride as often as you like.
For some, riding a bike is a way of transportation to and from work.
I don't think I'm disparaging him, I just said I'm glad everyone doesn't think like him, and I stand by that. After all, if all women thought like this, we'd become extinct, because many women die while giving birth.
Originally Posted By: montero1
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
You think that comparison to motorcycling is truly valid?
Riding a bike is a choice based on fun, enjoyment, thrills...etc. You can't legitimately compare that to being a member of the armed forces or a police officer and so forth.
And the comparison to various habits? Not valid either.
The OP has brought a valid reason not to ride. No reason to disparage him because you disagree. You are free to ride as often as you like.
For some, riding a bike is a way of transportation to and from work.
I don't think I'm disparaging him, I just said I'm glad everyone doesn't think like him, and I stand by that. After all, if all women thought like this, we'd become extinct, because many women die while giving birth.
Originally Posted By: montero1
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: montero1
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
You think that comparison to motorcycling is truly valid?
Riding a bike is a choice based on fun, enjoyment, thrills...etc. You can't legitimately compare that to being a member of the armed forces or a police officer and so forth.
And the comparison to various habits? Not valid either.
The OP has brought a valid reason not to ride. No reason to disparage him because you disagree. You are free to ride as often as you like.
For some, riding a bike is a way of transportation to and from work.
I don't think I'm disparaging him, I just said I'm glad everyone doesn't think like him, and I stand by that. After all, if all women thought like this, we'd become extinct, because many women die while giving birth.
The OP wasn't talking about a motorcycle being his only mode of transportaion to and from work. If that was the case, then until he could afford a safer means of commuting...the needs of employment supersede the risks.
While you may not have been directly disparaging him in your previous post, in this it's rather obvious that is the way it was meant.
That's fine, you are welcome to have an opinion. But so is the OP.
And I, for one, agree with him. And I used to ride as well. But honestly friend, your comparisons are still nonsense.
Originally Posted By: andrewg
Originally Posted By: montero1
I'm glad everyone doesn't think like the OP. We'd have no military, no cops, no airplane pilots, no teachers, no crossing guards for our children,........... but lets continue to smoke, drink, eat tons of red meat, and processed foods.
You think that comparison to motorcycling is truly valid?
Riding a bike is a choice based on fun, enjoyment, thrills...etc. You can't legitimately compare that to being a member of the armed forces or a police officer and so forth.
And the comparison to various habits? Not valid either.
The OP has brought a valid reason not to ride. No reason to disparage him because you disagree. You are free to ride as often as you like.
For some, riding a bike is a way of transportation to and from work.
I don't think I'm disparaging him, I just said I'm glad everyone doesn't think like him, and I stand by that. After all, if all women thought like this, we'd become extinct, because many women die while giving birth.
The OP wasn't talking about a motorcycle being his only mode of transportaion to and from work. If that was the case, then until he could afford a safer means of commuting...the needs of employment supersede the risks.
While you may not have been directly disparaging him in your previous post, in this it's rather obvious that is the way it was meant.
That's fine, you are welcome to have an opinion. But so is the OP.
And I, for one, agree with him. And I used to ride as well. But honestly friend, your comparisons are still nonsense.
I ride mostly with groups. That's actually ridiculously safer than riding alone.
True, it's not the safest form of transportation, but just look at the death rate of accidents in the home, and you realize that even staying home with all of the doors locked and the blinds pulled still has its hazards.
True, it's not the safest form of transportation, but just look at the death rate of accidents in the home, and you realize that even staying home with all of the doors locked and the blinds pulled still has its hazards.
Odds of dying from various causes
I don't see where motorcyclists have a 26X higher rate of mortality than from an automobile. This graphic shows a motorcyclist having about the same odds as drying. And better survival rates than pedestrians, car occupant, car driver, and falls. It's well down the list.
I don't see where motorcyclists have a 26X higher rate of mortality than from an automobile. This graphic shows a motorcyclist having about the same odds as drying. And better survival rates than pedestrians, car occupant, car driver, and falls. It's well down the list.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Odds of dying from various causes
I don't see where motorcyclists have a 26X higher rate of mortality than from an automobile. This graphic shows a motorcyclist having about the same odds as drying. And better survival rates than pedestrians, car occupant, car driver, and falls. It's well down the list.
Given that's the average across the population, it's not hard to see the difference.
300M people are car occupants, and have a 1 in 606 chance of dying in one.
You have a 1 in 948 chance of dying in a motorcycle accident as a citizen of the US, but 90% of citizens don't ride, so you have to reduce the population to those who ride...number that I've got are 1:36 people are motorcyclists in the US.
So the 1:948 becomes 1
948/36), which is about 1:26 RIDERS.
1:606 versus 1:26 is 23 times as likely to die as a participant in the activity.
Odds of dying from various causes
I don't see where motorcyclists have a 26X higher rate of mortality than from an automobile. This graphic shows a motorcyclist having about the same odds as drying. And better survival rates than pedestrians, car occupant, car driver, and falls. It's well down the list.
Given that's the average across the population, it's not hard to see the difference.
300M people are car occupants, and have a 1 in 606 chance of dying in one.
You have a 1 in 948 chance of dying in a motorcycle accident as a citizen of the US, but 90% of citizens don't ride, so you have to reduce the population to those who ride...number that I've got are 1:36 people are motorcyclists in the US.
So the 1:948 becomes 1
948/36), which is about 1:26 RIDERS.1:606 versus 1:26 is 23 times as likely to die as a participant in the activity.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I ride mostly with groups.
I most certainly do not! I have ridden with groups....someone always crashes, if they don't, other people do really stupid things. Last group I rode with were pretty good, we spaced ourselves about 400 metres apart, often you couldn't see the person in front or behind.
I ride mostly with groups.
I most certainly do not! I have ridden with groups....someone always crashes, if they don't, other people do really stupid things. Last group I rode with were pretty good, we spaced ourselves about 400 metres apart, often you couldn't see the person in front or behind.
- Status
