TBN, TAN, Ca, Mg, base-oil quality, oil life

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
M1 0W-40 SN seems to use a mix of PAO and Group V base stocks. Its NOACK is less than or equal to 10.0%, which is the MB 229.5 max allowed.

M1 0w-40 is predominantly VISOM these days (group III+). Its Noack is 8.8%.

Quote:
Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 SN NOACK is 10.0%; so, it's not better than the M1 and it could actually be worse.

PUE 5w-40 is GTL-based. Its Noack is 6.8%.

Hi Quattro Pete,

Why is there a belief that the M1 0W-40 SN is predominantly VISOM (Group III+)?

Do you know the CCS for the M1 0W-40 SN? If you look at the chart above, it's impossible to achieve 8.8% NOACK for the 0W- CCS range with a Group III base stock.

I found the presentation and answered my question. Mobil 1 0W-40 SN is indeed a mixture of their exclusive Visom Group III+ base stocks and some Group V ester. This is interesting. It's good to know.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I found the presentation and answered my question.

Yup. That's the one. Where have you been, Gokhan? This was front page news on BITOG many many moons ago.

This is also the reason why M1 0w-40 is no longer marketed as "full synthetic" in Germany. Not that I think it's a bad oil or anything...

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I found the presentation and answered my question.

Yup. That's the one. Where have you been, Gokhan? This was front page news on BITOG many many moons ago.

This is also the reason why M1 0w-40 is no longer marketed as "full synthetic" in Germany. Not that I think it's a bad oil or anything...

Yes, they are making up for the lower-quality base stocks (Group III+ vs. Group IV) with better additive packages.

The only downsides of the new, SN formulation seem to be that (1) the minimum usable temperature for the Mobil 1 0W-40 is now up from -48 C to -42 C (bad news for Canada and Alaska) and (2) the oxidation is now higher, which probably means faster TBN - TAN (TBN-minus-TAN) decrease, decreasing the length of the allowable OCI and increasing the bearing wear (lead ppm in UOA).

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I know EDYVW likes the GC in his VW's that run the same motor I have. I have never tried GC. I just felt that it wasn't "better" than M1 so why bother. Not that I'm cheap but M1 0w40 is tough to beat for price.

I feel EDYVW has a unique prospective because he drives cars with the same motor. I just haven't been swayed yet to try the GC. Yet. Would like to know what the NOACK is for the current GC. I believe it was posted before just don't recall. I know it must be 10% or less because it's a MB 229.5 approved oil.

I'm not really sure what to do on my next oil change. I guess just keep the M1 in and change it every 3k. Unless someone has an oil in mind that I should try?

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Would like to know what the NOACK is for the current GC.

There was a VOA done on a Russian oil site. They tested Castrol Edge 0w-30 A3/B4 which appeared identical to GC when it comes to additive pack, so it's very likely it was the same oil. It had Noack of 8.3%.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Is GC "synthetic" even in its home country where M1 is not?

Just curious.

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Home country? You mean Germany? From what I've read, production of GC has recently shifted to Belgium.

Quote:
Is GC "synthetic" even in its home country where M1 is not?

Can't say for sure since there is no product with the exact same name sold in Germany. There is however a product with the exact same specs as GC, and that one is classified as full synthetic in Germany.

 

[Gokhan]

Repeating post from another thread.

These are the Castrol Edge products sold in Germany, Group III or Group IV/V info is what I gathered from the datasheets:

Produktname Code Land Sprache Datum Typ

Fully synthetic (Group IV/V)
(These oils explicitly mention "vollsynthetisches" [fully synthetic] or "synthetisches" [synthetic] but not "HC-synthese" [synthetic hydrocarbon {Group III}] in their datasheets.)

Castrol EDGE 0W-30 463737 Germany German 26 Jan 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4 467465 Germany German 11 Sep 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE 10W-60 463738 Germany German 27 Feb 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Turbo Diesel 0W-30 463748 Germany German 23 Jun 2006 PI
Castrol EDGE Turbo Diesel 5W-40 463745 Germany German 19 Mar 2012 PI

Synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC = Group III)
(These oils do not explicitly mention "vollsynthetisches" [fully synthetic] or "synthetisches" [synthetic] or they mention "HC-synthese" [synthetic hydrocarbon {Group III}] in their datasheets.)

Castrol EDGE 5W-30 463740 Germany German 19 Apr 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE 5W-30 463740 Germany German 27 Sep 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE 5W-30 465007 Germany German Castrol/Consumer 13 Jul 2006 PI
Castrol EDGE 5W-40 463878 Germany German 31 Jan 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Formula RS 0W-40 465083 Germany German 04 Aug 2006 PI
Castrol EDGE Longlife II 0W-30 467282 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A1 5W-20 467327 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A3 0W-30 467330 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A3 0W-40 467337 Germany German 29 Feb 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A5 0W-30 467338 Germany German 13 Feb 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A5 5W-30 467339 Germany German 27 Sep 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional BMW LL04 0W-30 467340 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional C1 5W-30 467357 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional C3 0W-30 467342 Germany German 20 Jan 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional C4 5W-30 467358 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional E 0W-20 468056 Germany German 29 Jul 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional H 0W-20 468210 Germany German 02 Jan 2014 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional H 5W-30 468213 Germany German 05 Jun 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional H C2 0W-30 468230 Germany German 04 Jun 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional LongLife III 5W-30 467369 Germany German 07 Nov 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W-30 467370 Germany German 31 Jul 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10W-60 467449 Germany German 06 Dec 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional V 0W-20 468317 Germany German 08 Nov 2013 PI

Given the Castrol's infamously inaccurate datasheets, it's hard to make too much out of these. However, it looks like even in Germany the Group IV/V oils are becoming extinct in favor of the far cheaper Group III. So, chances are the "German Castrol" you are getting is a Group III oil. It's probably only Group IV/V if it has a German label and it explicitly says "vollsynthetisches" (fully synthetic) or "synthetisches" (synthetic) but not "HC-synthese" (synthetic-hydrocarbon [SHC] = Group III).

 

[Gokhan]

Repeating from another thread again.

Don't blame me for inaccuracies in this list because it's tedious to go through nearly 30 datasheets.

Update thanks to heads up from Quattro Pete. You can access the Germany (German) Castrol datasheets here (link):

These are the Castrol Edge products sold in Germany, Group III or Group IV/V info is what I gathered from the datasheets:

Produktname Code Land Sprache Datum Typ

Fully synthetic (Group IV/V)
(These oils explicitly mention "vollsynthetisches" [fully synthetic] or "synthetisches" [synthetic] but not "HC-synthese" [synthetic hydrocarbon {Group III}] in their datasheets.)

Castrol EDGE 0W-30 463737 Germany German 26 Jan 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A3 0W-30 467330 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE 0W-40 A3/B4 467465 Germany German 11 Sep 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE 10W-60 463738 Germany German 27 Feb 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Turbo Diesel 0W-30 463748 Germany German 23 Jun 2006 PI
Castrol EDGE Turbo Diesel 5W-40 463745 Germany German 19 Mar 2012 PI

Synthetic hydrocarbon (SHC = Group III)
(These oils do not explicitly mention "vollsynthetisches" [fully synthetic] or "synthetisches" [synthetic] or they mention "HC-synthese" [synthetic hydrocarbon {Group III}] in their datasheets.)

Castrol EDGE 5W-30 463740 Germany German 19 Apr 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE 5W-30 463740 Germany German 27 Sep 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE 5W-30 465007 Germany German Castrol/Consumer 13 Jul 2006 PI
Castrol EDGE 5W-40 463878 Germany German 31 Jan 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Formula RS 0W-40 465083 Germany German 04 Aug 2006 PI
Castrol EDGE Longlife II 0W-30 467282 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A1 5W-20 467327 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A3 0W-40 467337 Germany German 29 Feb 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A5 0W-30 467338 Germany German 13 Feb 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional A5 5W-30 467339 Germany German 27 Sep 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional BMW LL04 0W-30 467340 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional C1 5W-30 467357 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional C3 0W-30 467342 Germany German 20 Jan 2012 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional C4 5W-30 467358 Germany German 19 May 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional E 0W-20 468056 Germany German 29 Jul 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional H 0W-20 468210 Germany German 02 Jan 2014 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional H 5W-30 468213 Germany German 05 Jun 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional H C2 0W-30 468230 Germany German 04 Jun 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional LongLife III 5W-30 467369 Germany German 07 Nov 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W-30 467370 Germany German 31 Jul 2013 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional TWS 10W-60 467449 Germany German 06 Dec 2011 PI
Castrol EDGE Professional V 0W-20 468317 Germany German 08 Nov 2013 PI

Given the Castrol's infamously inaccurate datasheets, it's hard to make too much out of these. However, it looks like even in Germany the Group IV/V oils are becoming extinct in favor of the far cheaper Group III. So, chances are the "German Castrol" you are getting is a Group III oil. It's probably only Group IV/V if it has a German label and it explicitly says "vollsynthetisches" (fully synthetic) or "synthetisches" (synthetic) but not "HC-synthese" (synthetic-hydrocarbon [SHC] = Group III). However, the ACEA A3/B4 varieties of Castrol 0W-30 still seem to be the safe choice to be Group IV/V.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Is GC "synthetic" even in its home country where M1 is not?

Just curious.

Jeff

I still haven't seen a single good UOA with the German Castrol 0W-30. The very high lead numbers with the German Castrol seem especially problematic. Since you are also having problem with bearing wear, I would avoid this oil. German Castrol is a good example of why a PAO (Group IV) oil is not necessarily good.

If you want to try fancier Group IV/V oils, perhaps you should give the AMSOIL a try. Most AMSOIL UOAs I've seen are stellar. For your application I guest the right flavor is the Amsoil Full-SAPS European 5W-40. You could also experiment with the lower-HTHSV (3.2 cP) Signature 5W-30, even though VW recommends HTHSV >= 3.5 cP.

Or simply stick with the Mobil 1 0W-40 SN.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I hope my engine isn't showing signs of bearing wear.

The M1 is just easy to obtain and reasonably priced. I will just change it more often.

Jeff

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
M1 0W-40 SN seems to use a mix of PAO and Group V base stocks. Its NOACK is less than or equal to 10.0%, which is the MB 229.5 max allowed.

M1 0w-40 is predominantly VISOM these days (group III+). Its Noack is 8.8%.

Quote:
Pennzoil Euro 0W-40 SN NOACK is 10.0%; so, it's not better than the M1 and it could actually be worse.

PUE 5w-40 is GTL-based. Its Noack is 6.8%.

Hi Quattro Pete,

Why is there a belief that the M1 0W-40 SN is predominantly VISOM (Group III+)?

Do you know the CCS for the M1 0W-40 SN? If you look at the chart above, it's impossible to achieve 8.8% NOACK for the 0W- CCS range with a Group III base stock.

I found the presentation and answered my question. Mobil 1 0W-40 SN is indeed a mixture of their exclusive Visom Group III+ base stocks and some Group V ester. This is interesting. It's good to know.


If I read that correctly,are M1 oils going to no longer be grp III,but GTL instead eventually?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I found the presentation and answered my question. Mobil 1 0W-40 SN is indeed a mixture of their exclusive Visom Group III+ base stocks and some Group V ester. This is interesting. It's good to know.

If I read that correctly,are M1 oils going to no longer be grp III,but GTL instead eventually?

Yes, they are currently Visom Group III+, not GTL. However, they will transition to GTL in the future, possibly when API SP (or whatever comes next after SN) is introduced.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
.....................

We agonise over relatively minor matters for most car owners!

..................


Well said.

 

[Norm Olt]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Based on my UOA at 3k miles with M1 how on earth do people go 10k miles on an oil change? According to VW I can while under warranty as long as I use a 502 oil. There is no way I would go that long with a UOA like that. Again I'm curious to see what my 5k mile UOA will look like.

Jeff


If you feel you have sufficient proof that your specific engine is experiencing damage while under warranty with you conforming to all warranty requirements I'd opine you need to bring this (in writing) to the attention of the dealership & VW of NA service & warranty departments.

Otherwise, why bother?

Cheers!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I hope my engine isn't showing signs of bearing wear.

The M1 is just easy to obtain and reasonably priced. I will just change it more often.

Jeff

Yes, I was thinking about someone else's UOA. Your lead ppm is 0.

6 months, 6000 miles should be more than OK. I wouldn't overly worry about the TAN exceeding the TBN a little as you are showing low wear numbers. M1 0W-40 is good and cheap -- no need for anything else.

 

[buster]

Interesting discussion and I'm still as unsure about this topic as I was a few years ago. lol