Synthetics - What's The Point Anymore?

[Mr_Incredible]

Perhaps I'm disillusioned and depressed now that what we used to call synthetic oil is no longer always the case. How can we be sure of anything now? BITOG has caused me to think...and that's dangerous.

I used to be a huge fan of true synthetics. I thought the world of them. Synthetic oil did everything but slice bread and do windows.

Now, there are only a few true synthetics. Some are practically a Quest For The Holy Grail to get hold of. Others, you have to accept on an Act of Faith that they are truly better than Everybody Else, since their marketing appears somewhat smokey and mirrored. They are more expensive than all but the most extreme users can justify.

Pretenders To The Synthetic Throne are so good as to be interchangeable in many applications. They cost the same as the True Kings (but we know they come from commoner stock). That really insults our intelligence as it assaults our wallets.

Even Common Oil is no longer common. Outstanding protection at a reasonable price. Good for 90% of what we need. Bread for the masses.

Looking for better wear numbers? Go a weight higher.

Looking for better fuel economy? Go a weight lower.

Looking for cheaper? Go with whatever sale is happening.

Need extended drain intervals? Most new cars have them on common oil.

You can hardly go wrong. Catastrophic failure is no longer common at 50k, or even 150k.

So, again, my question. Except for extended drain intervals and spending as much money as possible, what's the point in true synthetics anymore.

 

[RacerE7773]

I used to use Durablend, and from what I saw the oil was as black as any other oil after the 3mo/3000 mile change. So I went back to regular oil. Have switched brands a few times, but now am staying with Castrol GTX. Easy to find, and comes in the gallon jugs until I can afford to start an oil stash like several of you Gents have whom post on BITOG.

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

I see what you mean, synthetic engine oil is probably overkill for me, but it doesn't break my bank to use it.

My car runs better with Amsoil over the Castrol and Castrol High Mileage that I had previously used, transmissions is smoother with Amsoil than it ever was with the Citgo ATF. Cleanliness is another thing...

Differential cover was absolutely spotless with Amsoil 80w-90, which only had 10,000 miles on it (I do a very short drain before going to the full extended drain), and the fluid looked like new when it came out. I cannot say either of those statements for Castrol 80w-90 after 8,000 miles, as the cover had a black film around it and the fluid was mixture of green and gray in colored.

I had the transmission serviced (pan drop and filter replacement) at ~87,000 miles and it was refilled with Citgo ATF, and at ~92,000 miles I wanted to learn to do it myself. I removed it and the pan had a black coating over the bottom of the pan (I don't think that the guys forgot to clean the bottom of the pan when it was serviced), so I cleaned it along with the magnet and replaced the filter. So at ~99,000 miles I fully flushed my transmission with Amsoil ATF, but did not replace the filter as it was fairly new. At 104,700 miles, I changed the filter again as I started getting paranoid about not changing it, and the pan was spotless. That was after ~7,000 miles on the Citgo ATF then ~5,400 miles on the Amsoil ATF.

I know those mileage intervals are short, but they are staying closely the same length as the petroleum fluids, so it's a fair comparison.

 

[Kestas]

I still think it's needed for turbo applications. Ever since I helped a Design Engineer at Chrysler Engine Design & Development look at a coking problem in a turbo he was trying to develop, I had respect for what turbos can do to an oil.

 

[Pablo]

Synthetic oil means never having to lay with my back on the snow, it means I can change my oil at the max recommend OCI or 10K or 12K or 15K and not sweat it.

Synthetic oil doesn't sludge at 7K.

Synthetic oil means no "odd noises" at -20°F. Yeah conventional 5W-30 will "turn over" at -10°F . But for some folks they ask a bit more out of their oil.

Sure conventional oil won't coke your turbo IF you catch it in time. But darn I don't want to change my oil right now.....

Are the new conventional oils getting closer, finally to what synthetic oils have been all about for 30+ years? Yep.

 

[farrarfan1]

If you don't like synthetics then don't use them. It's that simple. You might want to contact some of the manufacturers that use synthetic as the factory fill and tell them they should just use "common oil" in the Corvettes, BMW's etc. I'm sure they would appreciate the help.

 

[Tempest]

I was planning on going Amsoil for my engine...$1 PP changed my mind. Especially after looking at the spec's. for both oils. PP spec's are seriously encroaching on the PAO Amsoil spec's. PP is looking good for at least 7.5k OCI's as well.

I will still be going with Amsoil PAO for my tranny's/dif's, however, since they are in the vehicle for long periods and don't tend to shear like dino's do.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

FarrarFan1, I never said I didn't like them. Quite the contrary.

The point is, what's the point when non-PAO oils are getting so good? How much of this is taking marketing hype hook-line-sinker?

Sludge at 7k? Change at 4-5k. Costs the same, if you really NEED it for sludge. Not every engine is a sludge queen.

Not on your back in the snow? You are if you don't work it right regardless of what oil you use. Extend your mileage another 1000 for a nice day? How many UOAs do we see here that say "Go another 1000!"? Besides, I'm fat and old, and I was on the ground at 3* changing oil and tranny fluid this weekend. I kinda enjoy getting out this time of year.

Factory fill for Corvettes, Cubic-Yard-of-Money-Mobiles? Sez who? The Factory? How many factory edicts are made fun of here? Common oil won't make them blow up at 4-6k. Will they? Have they?

Amsoil at short intervals? Your choice. I can't afford it.

Turbo's heat? That's One.

Please don't get me wrong. I believe that true synthetics do and are all those things we've been saying about them for all these years. But are modern common oils, modern metalurgy, and modern engine design rendering them not-so-important to the common man nowdays.

And by common man, I mean Common Man. Not those that frequent the edge of sanity or safety.

 

[Pablo]

$1 PP sounds like a great deal. I mean it. But how available is that? Can anyone, at anytime, anywhere get this deal? (I honestly want to know)

I am slightly entertained by people who say Amsoil is hard to get, but will spend several hours, and a gallon or two of gas to get an on sale oil. (Tempest - not saying you do this) Some folks never include this cost in their calculations of the oil price.

 

[Volvohead]

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I still think it's needed for turbo applications.

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It may not be needed, but it is strongly preferred, even on the newer water cooled ones.

The heat around the bearing area is a torture chamber for any lubricant. If it's a HPT, the demands are even greater. The thermal loads can be enormous.

I'll only use a conventional for break in with a turbocharger, and even there I use a good blend.

 

[farrarfan1]

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FarrarFan1, I never said I didn't like them. Quite the contrary.

The point is, what's the point when non-PAO oils are getting so good? How much of this is taking marketing hype hook-line-sinker?

Sludge at 7k? Change at 4-5k. Costs the same, if you really NEED it for sludge. Not every engine is a sludge queen.

Not on your back in the snow? You are if you don't work it right regardless of what oil you use. Extend your mileage another 1000 for a nice day? How many UOAs do we see here that say "Go another 1000!"? Besides, I'm fat and old, and I was on the ground at 3* changing oil and tranny fluid this weekend. I kinda enjoy getting out this time of year.

Factory fill for Corvettes, Cubic-Yard-of-Money-Mobiles? Sez who? The Factory? How many factory edicts are made fun of here? Common oil won't make them blow up at 4-6k. Will they? Have they?

Amsoil at short intervals? Your choice. I can't afford it.

Turbo's heat? That's One.

Please don't get me wrong. I believe that true synthetics do and are all those things we've been saying about them for all these years. But are modern common oils, modern metalurgy, and modern engine design rendering them not-so-important to the common man nowdays.

And by common man, I mean Common Man. Not those that frequent the edge of sanity or safety.

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Your opening statement that you used to be a fan of synthetics leads one to conclude you're no longer a fan. Again if you want to use common oil then by all means use it.If you don't want to use synthetic then...don't.

 

[hominid7]

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So, again, my question. Except for extended drain intervals and spending as much money as possible, what's the point in true synthetics anymore.

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Synthetics were first introduced for use in extreame low temp environments. To this day that still remains their great strong point.

I dont use synthetics because the benefit does not warrant the price for my particular uses and OCI. I have used a great deal of TropArtic "semi-synthetic" and believe it to be a great oil at a great price. I can buy it chpear than i can buy regular national brand dino oil. It's not a 'real' synthetic, but it does have certain low temp benefits over some other non-blend dinos.

Now using a synthetic in your diff and/or tranny makes a lot of sense to me. From both a practical and financial point of view. My car ran its first 25k miles on DEXIII and at 25K is was VERY ready to be changed. I flushed it with MerconV (semi-synthetic) and at 53k miles it still looks and smells fresh and clean.

 

[Jimbo]

Gasoline engine turbos, yes, but what percentage of cars have them?
Deep-freeze arctic conditions in Canada and the upper Midwest,
but I dont live there, thankfully today!
Even the extended OCI of 2-years or 15,000 miles recommended by BMW,
but how many other manufacturers do that?

The nearest autoparts store is Kragen where Chevron Supreme is $1
on sale every few months and none of the above conditions apply.

 

[buster]

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But how available is that? Can anyone, at anytime, anywhere get this deal?

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No, and in fact I have yet to see it in S.Jersey.

The gap has closed and Pablo basically covered all the reasons synthetics are becoming more popular.

 

[sxg6]

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Looking for better wear numbers? Go a weight higher.

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I don't think this is true at all. Theres reports in the uoa section where people have run different weights, in the same vehicle, and the numbers are pretty much the same.

 

[hominid7]

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I used to use Durablend, and from what I saw the oil was as black as any other oil after the 3mo/3000 mile change. So I went back to regular oil.

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Most would agree that oil color is not a good indicator of what you are actually looking at.

IMHO Valvoline Synpower full synthetic is one of the best synthetics on the market, albeit severly under-advertised and expensive.

 

[Tempest]

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$1 PP sounds like a great deal. I mean it. But how available is that? Can anyone, at anytime, anywhere get this deal? (I honestly want to know)

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I agree, this is/was a VERY limited deal, that's why I took advantage and stocked up. I have said in another thread that I would buy Amsoil over PP if I had to pay full price.

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I am slightly entertained by people who say Amsoil is hard to get, but will spend several hours, and a gallon or two of gas to get an on sale oil. (Tempest - not saying you do this) Some folks never include this cost in their calculations of the oil price.

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I like having my oil delivered to my door!!

But I'm ARX'ing right now so driving to several stores for the deal was a plus for me (this time only). Doing a lot of driving for a typical $1/quart off is no deal.

ETA: If I had a turbo, I would be using Amsoil no matter how good the local oil deal. Turbo's cost too much, and the potential replacement cost would more than offset the cost in oil.

 

[Alan]

It's actually cheaper for me to use a good quality synthetic like the M1 ESP 5W40,fleece oil filter and follow a good OLM like the FSS in my C280.

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

I'm not "spending as much money as possible" and I am cheap when it comes to stuff like this.

Amsoil at short intervals, but only for the first time, and it doesn't break my bank. I won't do anymore short intervals with Amsoil ATF or gear oils, it's going to be 50,000-100,000 miles on them before I change them. I'll even do a UOA when I change them. Got to prove to the anti-Amsoil people that it's not all about hype.

 

[75003]

SM Dino oil is very good. So what if I have to change it every 4-5k miles.