If you use syn oil you will never have to change the oil, the gas mileage will double and your tires will never wear out. Put an Amsoil sticker on the back bumper and you will never get a speeding ticked.
Synthetic Oil Test on "TRUCKS!"
- Thread starter bbslider001
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
Also, AME works out to be $5.63 quart.
Does that include tax and shipping?
Also, AME works out to be $5.63 quart.
Does that include tax and shipping?
This is addressed in the computations I posted.
Hence why I did not use Amsoil 25k oil in the 5k, 10k, 15k comparisons. If you drive less than 7500 miles, you will often hear XL as the recommendation, and so forth.
Hence why I did not use Amsoil 25k oil in the 5k, 10k, 15k comparisons. If you drive less than 7500 miles, you will often hear XL as the recommendation, and so forth.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
If you use syn oil you will never have to change the oil, the gas mileage will double and your tires will never wear out. Put an Amsoil sticker on the back bumper and you will never get a speeding ticked.
:Submitted to Amsoil for next marketing ad:
If you use syn oil you will never have to change the oil, the gas mileage will double and your tires will never wear out. Put an Amsoil sticker on the back bumper and you will never get a speeding ticked.
:Submitted to Amsoil for next marketing ad:
dnewton3
Staff member
Must admit I got a giggle out of that one!
Bean - I was not able to view your charts at work, as the server blocks them. Here at home, they are very well laid out; nice work!
I do take issue with some of the presumtions, which very greatly affect the numbers. As I said in one of my other posts, 10k mile OCIs is not uncommon by the OLM (verified by UOAs) for some trucks, like my Dmax. That puts a huge change in the OCI calculations; can you rerun the charts based upon a 10k mile OCI? How many of those "No" blocks become a "yes" even when using the "retail" dino price? Esentially, that would cut the costs in half, making the dino much more attractive.
Granted, that's not applicable to all vehicles. But it's not exclusive of all vehicles, either. As we both likely now agree, the situation is very dependent upon many factors.
I firmly believe we're at odds on the prices for "normal" folks, but that's ok. I simply don't agree that I would have to pay retail shelf prices for dino HDEO (I haven't had to in four years), but you'll discount Amsoil to the special prices? We're just not going to be in agreement on that one. Like I said, shelf retail for Amsoil in my area is $8/qrt; that greatly affects your charts as well.
How about we hear from some people that actualy buy Amsoil HDEOs? What are you guys actually paying for your oil, all prices including delivery, quarts, membership, etc? The TOTAL price per quart? Anyone want to chime in? For that matter, how many guys can get dino HDEO for less than $10/gallon? I cannot be the only one! If you're like me, when a sale comes along, you get enough for a couple years?
Bean - I was not able to view your charts at work, as the server blocks them. Here at home, they are very well laid out; nice work!
I do take issue with some of the presumtions, which very greatly affect the numbers. As I said in one of my other posts, 10k mile OCIs is not uncommon by the OLM (verified by UOAs) for some trucks, like my Dmax. That puts a huge change in the OCI calculations; can you rerun the charts based upon a 10k mile OCI? How many of those "No" blocks become a "yes" even when using the "retail" dino price? Esentially, that would cut the costs in half, making the dino much more attractive.
Granted, that's not applicable to all vehicles. But it's not exclusive of all vehicles, either. As we both likely now agree, the situation is very dependent upon many factors.
I firmly believe we're at odds on the prices for "normal" folks, but that's ok. I simply don't agree that I would have to pay retail shelf prices for dino HDEO (I haven't had to in four years), but you'll discount Amsoil to the special prices? We're just not going to be in agreement on that one. Like I said, shelf retail for Amsoil in my area is $8/qrt; that greatly affects your charts as well.
How about we hear from some people that actualy buy Amsoil HDEOs? What are you guys actually paying for your oil, all prices including delivery, quarts, membership, etc? The TOTAL price per quart? Anyone want to chime in? For that matter, how many guys can get dino HDEO for less than $10/gallon? I cannot be the only one! If you're like me, when a sale comes along, you get enough for a couple years?
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Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Also, AME works out to be $5.63 quart.
Does that include tax and shipping?
No that's product cost. I don't use tax in my calculations because the dino guys don't.
Neat thread in a way. Glad to get these things out there. Conventional oil pushing $3 quart is the NORM here.
Where are all the Amsoil HDEO people? Not on BITOG, that is for sure.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Also, AME works out to be $5.63 quart.
Does that include tax and shipping?
No that's product cost. I don't use tax in my calculations because the dino guys don't.
Neat thread in a way. Glad to get these things out there. Conventional oil pushing $3 quart is the NORM here.
Where are all the Amsoil HDEO people? Not on BITOG, that is for sure.
dnewton3
Staff member
"No that's product cost. I don't use tax in my calculations because the dino guys don't."
Actaully, I did, and even rounded up in my 2009 OCI calculations for the convenience of the conversation. I use an "average" of $25 to allow for small cost variences.
In 2006, the year I bought my Dmax, I got Tection Extra 3/gallons for $22.99 = $7.67/gallon. Filter for $5.99
In 2007, I got Rotella 10w-30 at Menards for $7.99/gallon. Filter $5.99
In 2008, I got Delvac 1300 for $6.99/gallon (after $3/gallon rebate). Same filter deal every year.
Here's my ACTUAL detailed break down for 2009 OCI
2.5 gallons of Delvac @ 12.99/gallon (BOGOF divides by 2) = $16.24
NG 7202 filter on sale = $5.99
IN sales Tax @ 7% = $1.56
Total paid out the door for an OCI in my Dmax: $23.79 (which is less than the $25 average I use for conversation in this thread.)
I average less than 10k miles a year, which means I only have to find one sale per year. There are WAY more sales than that, in every region of the country. Someone who claims they cannot find a dino HDEO sale is simply not looking and/or not planning ahead. That's OK for them, but don't downplay the available savings in a dino OCI. If one does not take advantage of the available sales, it does not mean the sales don't exist. If I could only find one example in my entire four years of ownership, my data might be questionable. But I only have to start looking about a month or two before my intended OCI, and I'll find something that will work for around $25, out-the-door cost. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. $25 average is a very fair, all costs included, figure.
Let's compare that to the DEO as previously quoted:
10 quarts DEO total cost $63 (sale price? certainly not a "shelf" price, which is $80 a my local store)
EaO filter $13 (not required at all) (agreed, but I suspect 99% Amsoil users do this, so it SHOULD be included. Even if not an EaO, they would use a P1 or M1 filter, which is still over $10!)
shipping $10 (seems fair)
"PC membership $10 (but why) ](why not? are you saying we can all get discount prices w/o the membership cost? I don't believe it, but I'll leave it out of the calculations just to help out your cause.)
For this first calculation we leave out the membership, but put in the Eao filter. Why the EaO? Because any Amsoil user is HIGHLY inclined to use an EaO; how many Amsoil users pair up their high quality oil with the OCOD or a ST filter???????
$63 oil
$13 filter
$10 shipping
Total: $86
So, $86 to $24 (round figures) is a ratio of 3.6x the cost.
I understand that if you drop the filter out, you save money. BUT THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF MY CALCUTIONS.
So, let's do it w/o the filters (just oil and shipping):
Amsoil is $63 (oil) + $10(shipping) = $73 total
Dino = $20 (or less based upon my four real cost examples, includes less than $1 of fuel for stopping at some store on the way home once or twice a year!)
So, the cost ratio is 3.65x
OK, let's take out all fuel and shipping costs, and look at just the oil alone
Amsoil: $63
Dino: $19
cost ratio: 3.3x
No matter how you look at it, Asmoil costs 3-4x more money. If you add in PC membership, you're darn near 4x.
Looking at NON-Amsoil PAOs results in even higher ratios for some products such as RL and RP.
So, when I say the average costs for a real-world typical PAO OCI contrasted to a dino OCI is 3x to 4x (product dependent), that covers the VAST majority of most any circumstance you can possibly imagine, for us real world folks.
Actaully, I did, and even rounded up in my 2009 OCI calculations for the convenience of the conversation. I use an "average" of $25 to allow for small cost variences.
In 2006, the year I bought my Dmax, I got Tection Extra 3/gallons for $22.99 = $7.67/gallon. Filter for $5.99
In 2007, I got Rotella 10w-30 at Menards for $7.99/gallon. Filter $5.99
In 2008, I got Delvac 1300 for $6.99/gallon (after $3/gallon rebate). Same filter deal every year.
Here's my ACTUAL detailed break down for 2009 OCI
2.5 gallons of Delvac @ 12.99/gallon (BOGOF divides by 2) = $16.24
NG 7202 filter on sale = $5.99
IN sales Tax @ 7% = $1.56
Total paid out the door for an OCI in my Dmax: $23.79 (which is less than the $25 average I use for conversation in this thread.)
I average less than 10k miles a year, which means I only have to find one sale per year. There are WAY more sales than that, in every region of the country. Someone who claims they cannot find a dino HDEO sale is simply not looking and/or not planning ahead. That's OK for them, but don't downplay the available savings in a dino OCI. If one does not take advantage of the available sales, it does not mean the sales don't exist. If I could only find one example in my entire four years of ownership, my data might be questionable. But I only have to start looking about a month or two before my intended OCI, and I'll find something that will work for around $25, out-the-door cost. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. $25 average is a very fair, all costs included, figure.
Let's compare that to the DEO as previously quoted:
10 quarts DEO total cost $63 (sale price? certainly not a "shelf" price, which is $80 a my local store)
EaO filter $13 (not required at all) (agreed, but I suspect 99% Amsoil users do this, so it SHOULD be included. Even if not an EaO, they would use a P1 or M1 filter, which is still over $10!)
shipping $10 (seems fair)
"PC membership $10 (but why) ](why not? are you saying we can all get discount prices w/o the membership cost? I don't believe it, but I'll leave it out of the calculations just to help out your cause.)
For this first calculation we leave out the membership, but put in the Eao filter. Why the EaO? Because any Amsoil user is HIGHLY inclined to use an EaO; how many Amsoil users pair up their high quality oil with the OCOD or a ST filter???????
$63 oil
$13 filter
$10 shipping
Total: $86
So, $86 to $24 (round figures) is a ratio of 3.6x the cost.
I understand that if you drop the filter out, you save money. BUT THE SAME CAN BE SAID OF MY CALCUTIONS.
So, let's do it w/o the filters (just oil and shipping):
Amsoil is $63 (oil) + $10(shipping) = $73 total
Dino = $20 (or less based upon my four real cost examples, includes less than $1 of fuel for stopping at some store on the way home once or twice a year!)
So, the cost ratio is 3.65x
OK, let's take out all fuel and shipping costs, and look at just the oil alone
Amsoil: $63
Dino: $19
cost ratio: 3.3x
No matter how you look at it, Asmoil costs 3-4x more money. If you add in PC membership, you're darn near 4x.
Looking at NON-Amsoil PAOs results in even higher ratios for some products such as RL and RP.
So, when I say the average costs for a real-world typical PAO OCI contrasted to a dino OCI is 3x to 4x (product dependent), that covers the VAST majority of most any circumstance you can possibly imagine, for us real world folks.
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We have already agreed that you get your oil at exceptionally low prices. I walk in all kinds of auto parts stores - I see the prices of 5W-40. So when I compare what I see, it's below 2X difference. I mean we could find some $1 qt oil and make it 6X. But REALLY how many $1, or $2 quart 5W-40's do you see? Now you are comparing different viscosities, silly me - I thought we were comparing modern CJ-4 5W-40's. Interesting. Yes synthetic base oils ARE more expensive.
Most people on Bitog do not use tax in their calcs, just an observation. Just like they don't count the cost of going to get the oil,etc.
But to answer your questions.
Yes, price is PC price. I do offer to pay the PC fee, or sell at the PC if paying direct.
So let's bring this to an end. A site sponsor and a moderator must remain civil, as we have. Sure you could make it 4X (by choosing other grades) and I can make it 2X (by picking non sale oils of the same grade), but this does not make a synthetic oil a poor value, and if someone wants to pay a couple bucks more to keep their rings clean and free moving, I don't see it as a budget breaker.
Most people on Bitog do not use tax in their calcs, just an observation. Just like they don't count the cost of going to get the oil,etc.
But to answer your questions.
Yes, price is PC price. I do offer to pay the PC fee, or sell at the PC if paying direct.
So let's bring this to an end. A site sponsor and a moderator must remain civil, as we have. Sure you could make it 4X (by choosing other grades) and I can make it 2X (by picking non sale oils of the same grade), but this does not make a synthetic oil a poor value, and if someone wants to pay a couple bucks more to keep their rings clean and free moving, I don't see it as a budget breaker.
dnewton, I will respond to your longer posts, I just have yet to get another chance.
Meanwhile, I didn't compare Amsoil HDEO's in my computation I presented. So, in all fairness, I skipped out on the 3x OEM recommendation up to 50,000 miles tid-bit (further extended by UOA). I think, fairly, this changes the ballgame quite a bit.
Meanwhile, I didn't compare Amsoil HDEO's in my computation I presented. So, in all fairness, I skipped out on the 3x OEM recommendation up to 50,000 miles tid-bit (further extended by UOA). I think, fairly, this changes the ballgame quite a bit.
This has been an interesting read/conversation and I thank all involved for keeping it civil. I do believe this is one of those topics where everyone can say we can agree to disagree. Both sides have good points and neither is going to change the others mind.
In the grand scheme of things, one hundred years from now won't any of us know the difference.
In the grand scheme of things, one hundred years from now won't any of us know the difference.
dnewton3
Staff member
"Yes, price is PC price. I do offer to pay the PC fee, or sell at the PC if paying direct."
So essentially, you're offering a deal which only people whom purchase through you can get, right? That "membership" savings is passed on via your good will. But that certainly isn't a realistic view of the whole Amoil vendor market. And your $6/qrt price is based upon that advantage ONLY if they ordered via you; otherwise they'd either:
1) pay full retail shelf price
2) pay pc prices, but also have to pay pc membership fees
Further, I am very specific in my claims. I do not concern myself with the nuiances of xW-40 oils for the purpose of this discussion. If you'll go back, I simply am contrasting the value of quality dinos and quality PAO synthetics. 5w-40 versus 15w-40 is not the topic of debate. There are dino oils in multi-grades that essentially cover all the reasonable temp ranges that any 5w-40 PAO would cover, excluding extreme cold (below -15).
I'm curious how you can state this:
"Most people on Bitog do not use tax in their calcs, just an observation. Just like they don't count the cost of going to get the oil,etc."
and this:
" ... and of course you never add the cost (and complete hassle) of driving 24 miles ONE WAY to the closest Walmart. Why is that?"
How is it that you state that "most people" don't count the cost of going to get the oil, but you contend both cost and the major "hassle" exist in my OCI plan? Which is it? Your very own words are contradictory.
"I thought we were comparing modern CJ-4 5W-40's."
You're not reading my posts closely enough. Here is what I have said multiple times in this issue:
"Further, it is VERY easy to find quality dino (Delo, Delvac, Rotella, etc) on sale around this nation at least once every couple months"
"I completely agree that hopping from brand to brand messes with UOAs, but as far as engine protection goes, there is no risk. So, by finding brands on sale and being true to your wallet versus a brand, you can ALWAYS find something on sale with enough timely notice BEFORE an OCI, thereby making savings a constant, ..."
"it takes no more effort to surf the web for Amsoil than it does for Rotella, Delo or Delvac at AAP, PepBoys, O-R's, or such..."
So, just where did I limit a person to a specific oil brand or grade in this entire topic? It's clear from my own purchase history that many dino brands are available at great sale prices, with enough frequency that at least two dino OCIs can be supported per year. I'll bet you that MOST bitogers have WAY more oil in the garage than they need at any given OCI; it's our nature to get deals when they come along! We over-buy, and we brag on it for goodness sake! Why would ANY bitoger pay retail? It's just not in our blood!
"but this does not make a synthetic oil a poor value, ..."
I NEVER said it was a poor value in the sense that it can be applied to all situations. MANY, MANY, MANY times I have professed that synthetics are a great value WHEN YOU EXTEND THE OIC! I have the utmost respect for Amsoil and similar products such as Mobil 1. I even use synthetics for some of my applications! But they are not a one-size-fits-all solution. Synthetics make great fiscal sense when extending the OCIs. Short of that, their 'advantages' fades quickly. Their cost is easily justifed and can become a huge winner in long term use.
"and if someone wants to pay a couple bucks more to keep their rings clean and free moving, I don't see it as a budget breaker."
Are you implying that using dino oils will result in coked rings? More specifically, are you seriously suggesting that ONLY synthetics will save the mechanical world with a virtue of clean rings that is unique to synthetics?
I'll agree on this: we've been civil. There's been no name calling, no personal attacks, no derisive taunts. I thank you Pablo for your polite nature, and BeanCounter as well, even though it's obvious some of our positions are polar opposites. Clearly we're not going to agree on much at this point. But healthy debate is just that; it's not childish fighting. I appreciate the opportunity of the exhange, and compliment you on your conduct. I hope that I have not offended anyone personally, and take this opportunity to apologize in advance if I have.
So essentially, you're offering a deal which only people whom purchase through you can get, right? That "membership" savings is passed on via your good will. But that certainly isn't a realistic view of the whole Amoil vendor market. And your $6/qrt price is based upon that advantage ONLY if they ordered via you; otherwise they'd either:
1) pay full retail shelf price
2) pay pc prices, but also have to pay pc membership fees
Further, I am very specific in my claims. I do not concern myself with the nuiances of xW-40 oils for the purpose of this discussion. If you'll go back, I simply am contrasting the value of quality dinos and quality PAO synthetics. 5w-40 versus 15w-40 is not the topic of debate. There are dino oils in multi-grades that essentially cover all the reasonable temp ranges that any 5w-40 PAO would cover, excluding extreme cold (below -15).
I'm curious how you can state this:
"Most people on Bitog do not use tax in their calcs, just an observation. Just like they don't count the cost of going to get the oil,etc."
and this:
" ... and of course you never add the cost (and complete hassle) of driving 24 miles ONE WAY to the closest Walmart. Why is that?"
How is it that you state that "most people" don't count the cost of going to get the oil, but you contend both cost and the major "hassle" exist in my OCI plan? Which is it? Your very own words are contradictory.
"I thought we were comparing modern CJ-4 5W-40's."
You're not reading my posts closely enough. Here is what I have said multiple times in this issue:
"Further, it is VERY easy to find quality dino (Delo, Delvac, Rotella, etc) on sale around this nation at least once every couple months"
"I completely agree that hopping from brand to brand messes with UOAs, but as far as engine protection goes, there is no risk. So, by finding brands on sale and being true to your wallet versus a brand, you can ALWAYS find something on sale with enough timely notice BEFORE an OCI, thereby making savings a constant, ..."
"it takes no more effort to surf the web for Amsoil than it does for Rotella, Delo or Delvac at AAP, PepBoys, O-R's, or such..."
So, just where did I limit a person to a specific oil brand or grade in this entire topic? It's clear from my own purchase history that many dino brands are available at great sale prices, with enough frequency that at least two dino OCIs can be supported per year. I'll bet you that MOST bitogers have WAY more oil in the garage than they need at any given OCI; it's our nature to get deals when they come along! We over-buy, and we brag on it for goodness sake! Why would ANY bitoger pay retail? It's just not in our blood!
"but this does not make a synthetic oil a poor value, ..."
I NEVER said it was a poor value in the sense that it can be applied to all situations. MANY, MANY, MANY times I have professed that synthetics are a great value WHEN YOU EXTEND THE OIC! I have the utmost respect for Amsoil and similar products such as Mobil 1. I even use synthetics for some of my applications! But they are not a one-size-fits-all solution. Synthetics make great fiscal sense when extending the OCIs. Short of that, their 'advantages' fades quickly. Their cost is easily justifed and can become a huge winner in long term use.
"and if someone wants to pay a couple bucks more to keep their rings clean and free moving, I don't see it as a budget breaker."
Are you implying that using dino oils will result in coked rings? More specifically, are you seriously suggesting that ONLY synthetics will save the mechanical world with a virtue of clean rings that is unique to synthetics?
I'll agree on this: we've been civil. There's been no name calling, no personal attacks, no derisive taunts. I thank you Pablo for your polite nature, and BeanCounter as well, even though it's obvious some of our positions are polar opposites. Clearly we're not going to agree on much at this point. But healthy debate is just that; it's not childish fighting. I appreciate the opportunity of the exhange, and compliment you on your conduct. I hope that I have not offended anyone personally, and take this opportunity to apologize in advance if I have.
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
So, just where did I limit a person to a specific oil brand or grade in this entire topic?
I was pretty much done here, but I'll enter this:
The main reason was very simple from my point of view, because you chose DEO for comparison.
So, just where did I limit a person to a specific oil brand or grade in this entire topic?
I was pretty much done here, but I'll enter this:
The main reason was very simple from my point of view, because you chose DEO for comparison.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I hope that I have not offended anyone personally, and take this opportunity to apologize in advance if I have.
You have, unequivocally, not been offensive in the least way. Absolutely no need to apologize.
I hope that I have not offended anyone personally, and take this opportunity to apologize in advance if I have.
You have, unequivocally, not been offensive in the least way. Absolutely no need to apologize.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Bean - I was not able to view your charts at work, as the server blocks them. Here at home, they are very well laid out; nice work!
I do take issue with some of the presumtions, which very greatly affect the numbers. As I said in one of my other posts, 10k mile OCIs is not uncommon by the OLM (verified by UOAs) for some trucks, like my Dmax. That puts a huge change in the OCI calculations; can you rerun the charts based upon a 10k mile OCI? How many of those "No" blocks become a "yes" even when using the "retail" dino price? Esentially, that would cut the costs in half, making the dino much more attractive.
Thanks. I did leave out the 10k OCI (which I admit, I didn't factor in HDEO oil) so in all reality, the current numbers in that chart are probably applicable much more to gas vehicles than diesels for sure. This changes the calculation, and inherently the outcome, for both Amsoil and the dino HDEO oils.
The reason I left the 10k out is because it is not objective enough for me to create concrete numbers with. I have no comparative data for Amsoil that could show longer OCI's than I posted on the spreadsheets, and that would be speculation. The first plateau of basis I had to work with was simply recommended and/or warrantied OCI duration.
Concerning HDEOs, Amsoil can run successfully up to 50k on some of their oil, but I haven't updated those spreadsheets to reflect more speculative, less concrete numbers. Unfortunately, I am trying to present numbers that may reside in a happy medium for average results, and the length I know for a fact are recommended and warrantied were those numbers. The further I deviate from what we know for sure to specific scenarios, the less applicable I feel it can be to everyone...although I am certainly not discounting the possibility for some!
I'll see if I can get to changing the chart at some point. If you are wanting to see a specific cost/benefit analysis, whether I may agree with it or not, feel free to PM me the changes you would like me to make and I will post up a calc.
Quote:
Granted, that's not applicable to all vehicles. But it's not exclusive of all vehicles, either. As we both likely now agree, the situation is very dependent upon many factors.
I agree with you, as there are a ton of independent variables here.
Quote:
I firmly believe we're at odds on the prices for "normal" folks, but that's ok. I simply don't agree that I would have to pay retail shelf prices for dino HDEO (I haven't had to in four years), but you'll discount Amsoil to the special prices? We're just not going to be in agreement on that one. Like I said, shelf retail for Amsoil in my area is $8/quart; that greatly affects your charts as well.
I think we will disagree and that is okay.
I have seen Delvac, for one, for several dollars over $12.99 a gallon before, so I felt like I was being fairly generous there, for the average price every individual could go out and buy the oil on any given day.
The "Special prices" with Amsoil, to the contrary, are not really the equivalent of "sale" prices though. These prices can be found every day from any number of dealers around the country.
Basically, as I mentioned before, a random individual can get Amsoil at a PC price (with a PC purchase at least, but often without) 47 days from now, but can they be guaranteed to get a 2-for-1 sale on X brand HDEO at their nearest auto parts store? Unfortunately, unless they live in a huge, high competition market, I don't believe they can. This is also why I included the PC price in the top portion of the computations. Just trying to avoid the independent variables we have been discussing, and sale prices are definitely one of them.
As to the end of that comment, you finding Amsoil for $8/quart on a shelf at a store is 10x more rare than the traditional means of distribution for Amsoil. The oil is sold, by far more, through independent distributions (generally individuals) and can be sold at retail or discounted. I, personally, know for a FACT that you can find dealers who will sell Amsoil all day long deeply discounted. In fact, some are so big and push so many products that they work off of the commission they receive from Amsoil FAR MORE than they do the price they sell products over retail. Trust me here, as I guarantee I am not peeing down your back and telling you it's raining...so to speak.
Bean - I was not able to view your charts at work, as the server blocks them. Here at home, they are very well laid out; nice work!
I do take issue with some of the presumtions, which very greatly affect the numbers. As I said in one of my other posts, 10k mile OCIs is not uncommon by the OLM (verified by UOAs) for some trucks, like my Dmax. That puts a huge change in the OCI calculations; can you rerun the charts based upon a 10k mile OCI? How many of those "No" blocks become a "yes" even when using the "retail" dino price? Esentially, that would cut the costs in half, making the dino much more attractive.
Thanks. I did leave out the 10k OCI (which I admit, I didn't factor in HDEO oil) so in all reality, the current numbers in that chart are probably applicable much more to gas vehicles than diesels for sure. This changes the calculation, and inherently the outcome, for both Amsoil and the dino HDEO oils.
The reason I left the 10k out is because it is not objective enough for me to create concrete numbers with. I have no comparative data for Amsoil that could show longer OCI's than I posted on the spreadsheets, and that would be speculation. The first plateau of basis I had to work with was simply recommended and/or warrantied OCI duration.
Concerning HDEOs, Amsoil can run successfully up to 50k on some of their oil, but I haven't updated those spreadsheets to reflect more speculative, less concrete numbers. Unfortunately, I am trying to present numbers that may reside in a happy medium for average results, and the length I know for a fact are recommended and warrantied were those numbers. The further I deviate from what we know for sure to specific scenarios, the less applicable I feel it can be to everyone...although I am certainly not discounting the possibility for some!
I'll see if I can get to changing the chart at some point. If you are wanting to see a specific cost/benefit analysis, whether I may agree with it or not, feel free to PM me the changes you would like me to make and I will post up a calc.
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Granted, that's not applicable to all vehicles. But it's not exclusive of all vehicles, either. As we both likely now agree, the situation is very dependent upon many factors.
I agree with you, as there are a ton of independent variables here.
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I firmly believe we're at odds on the prices for "normal" folks, but that's ok. I simply don't agree that I would have to pay retail shelf prices for dino HDEO (I haven't had to in four years), but you'll discount Amsoil to the special prices? We're just not going to be in agreement on that one. Like I said, shelf retail for Amsoil in my area is $8/quart; that greatly affects your charts as well.
I think we will disagree and that is okay.
I have seen Delvac, for one, for several dollars over $12.99 a gallon before, so I felt like I was being fairly generous there, for the average price every individual could go out and buy the oil on any given day.
The "Special prices" with Amsoil, to the contrary, are not really the equivalent of "sale" prices though. These prices can be found every day from any number of dealers around the country.
Basically, as I mentioned before, a random individual can get Amsoil at a PC price (with a PC purchase at least, but often without) 47 days from now, but can they be guaranteed to get a 2-for-1 sale on X brand HDEO at their nearest auto parts store? Unfortunately, unless they live in a huge, high competition market, I don't believe they can. This is also why I included the PC price in the top portion of the computations. Just trying to avoid the independent variables we have been discussing, and sale prices are definitely one of them.
As to the end of that comment, you finding Amsoil for $8/quart on a shelf at a store is 10x more rare than the traditional means of distribution for Amsoil. The oil is sold, by far more, through independent distributions (generally individuals) and can be sold at retail or discounted. I, personally, know for a FACT that you can find dealers who will sell Amsoil all day long deeply discounted. In fact, some are so big and push so many products that they work off of the commission they receive from Amsoil FAR MORE than they do the price they sell products over retail. Trust me here, as I guarantee I am not peeing down your back and telling you it's raining...so to speak.
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Out of curiosity, do we definitely presume that stretching a dino oil, even with acceptable UOA's to support, is technically providing identical performance as a high quality syn run longer, as a corresponding ratio (i.e. 3:1, etc.)?
Do we know for a fact that seals are conditioned as well?
Also, we have not factored in any possible fuel efficiency gains or exterior benefits that could be seen, either...
Either way, just curious as to the consensus around here.
I don't know I'm completely sold on, a dino vs. syn with a 3:1 ratio, necessarily having identical protection/benefits in the first 1k miles vs 3k miles, 3k miles vs 9k miles, and so on.
Do we know for a fact that seals are conditioned as well?
Also, we have not factored in any possible fuel efficiency gains or exterior benefits that could be seen, either...
Either way, just curious as to the consensus around here.
I don't know I'm completely sold on, a dino vs. syn with a 3:1 ratio, necessarily having identical protection/benefits in the first 1k miles vs 3k miles, 3k miles vs 9k miles, and so on.
dnewton3
Staff member
I'm sure we both agree that there are methods of knowledge that can discover much, but the cost is too great for most of us mere mortals. Here, I'm speaking of tear-down analysis. OTOH, we use UOAs as direct indications of the lubricant health, and in-direct indications of equipment health. UOAs are within our financial pain thresh-hold; teardown's are not.
That in mind, I cannot speak to the specific issue of how seals may be viewed with a 10k mile OCI of dino versus some longer OCI with PAOs. Teardown analysis would reveal this, but I suspect most of us do not have the time/money to seek out the info from such depths. Many of us (myself included) have done engine teardowns and rebuilds, but not with the specific quest of seal conditions, and certainly not in a large enough quantity to assess true statistical data. If nothing else, we all know people who have equipment that leeches oil from day one, and we see other equipment that confounds the mind by running in abusvie care for eons. I cannot provide any proof, but there are examples where reasonable OCIs keep the seals and bearings in good condition for a long time (hence the two Chevy million mile trucks). Other vehicles die an untimely death. All we can do it hope for the former, and avoid the later ...
All that being said, what I look at is UOA wear numbers, which are a fair in-direct view of the engine's condition. What I see in the hundreds of UOAs I review, and 175 I have in my direct log, is that (generally) diesel powered equipment can go 8-10k miles (or run time equivilant) with the same wear metal counts running dino fluids, as those that run synthetics. So, up to 10k miles or so, you do not get less wear from a synthetic. If you don't get less wear, then you surely had better hope for longer lubricant life (at least in line with some perceived cost ratio).
This certainly is targeted to people who OCI at a set moderate amount, and somehow presume that they will get less wear by using a premium PAO (any brand). The evidence refutes this soundly! You WILL get less wear from a synthetic if you push the OCI out to 20k or 30k miles, because the dino fluid it not capable of that duration; synthetics rule in this regard.
Fundementally, most people have their OCI plan booty-backwards. They pick a fluid based upon some emotional want, and then force it into an arbitrary OCI duration. Rather, they should plan a maintenance routine that fits their needs/abilities, and then choose a lubricant that fulfills those criteria. It makes no more sense to run PAOs for 5k mile OCIs than it does to run dino's for 25k mile OCIs; one is wasteful, the other gross neglect. One should match the fluid and the PM plan.
Running PAOs in short-to-moderate OCIs has no pay-point that can be attained; the ROI simply isn't there. You don't get less wear, and you don't get the full use of the fluid when you can't/won't push out the OCI. And truthfully, the very same can be said for dino fluids. Some people choose to OCI with quality dinos at 3k or 5k miles, which is under-utilizing even the dino fluids.
It's not a question of PAOs being worthwhile; it's a statement of getting the full value out of ANY fluid. I am just as adamant about people not wasting money on quality dino fluid short OCIs as well.
That in mind, I cannot speak to the specific issue of how seals may be viewed with a 10k mile OCI of dino versus some longer OCI with PAOs. Teardown analysis would reveal this, but I suspect most of us do not have the time/money to seek out the info from such depths. Many of us (myself included) have done engine teardowns and rebuilds, but not with the specific quest of seal conditions, and certainly not in a large enough quantity to assess true statistical data. If nothing else, we all know people who have equipment that leeches oil from day one, and we see other equipment that confounds the mind by running in abusvie care for eons. I cannot provide any proof, but there are examples where reasonable OCIs keep the seals and bearings in good condition for a long time (hence the two Chevy million mile trucks). Other vehicles die an untimely death. All we can do it hope for the former, and avoid the later ...
All that being said, what I look at is UOA wear numbers, which are a fair in-direct view of the engine's condition. What I see in the hundreds of UOAs I review, and 175 I have in my direct log, is that (generally) diesel powered equipment can go 8-10k miles (or run time equivilant) with the same wear metal counts running dino fluids, as those that run synthetics. So, up to 10k miles or so, you do not get less wear from a synthetic. If you don't get less wear, then you surely had better hope for longer lubricant life (at least in line with some perceived cost ratio).
This certainly is targeted to people who OCI at a set moderate amount, and somehow presume that they will get less wear by using a premium PAO (any brand). The evidence refutes this soundly! You WILL get less wear from a synthetic if you push the OCI out to 20k or 30k miles, because the dino fluid it not capable of that duration; synthetics rule in this regard.
Fundementally, most people have their OCI plan booty-backwards. They pick a fluid based upon some emotional want, and then force it into an arbitrary OCI duration. Rather, they should plan a maintenance routine that fits their needs/abilities, and then choose a lubricant that fulfills those criteria. It makes no more sense to run PAOs for 5k mile OCIs than it does to run dino's for 25k mile OCIs; one is wasteful, the other gross neglect. One should match the fluid and the PM plan.
Running PAOs in short-to-moderate OCIs has no pay-point that can be attained; the ROI simply isn't there. You don't get less wear, and you don't get the full use of the fluid when you can't/won't push out the OCI. And truthfully, the very same can be said for dino fluids. Some people choose to OCI with quality dinos at 3k or 5k miles, which is under-utilizing even the dino fluids.
It's not a question of PAOs being worthwhile; it's a statement of getting the full value out of ANY fluid. I am just as adamant about people not wasting money on quality dino fluid short OCIs as well.
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I'm glad some people are sticking up for dino oils here. Dino oils are a little under rated I think. We use 15w-40 Service Pro on our farm with great UOAs. One example is our New Holland TS135A tractor. It has a 6.7L CNH engine. We do 600 hour intervals with no issues. Doesn't even use any oil between changes. That'd be the equivalent of about 18,000 miles I think. It is the tractor on our feed wagon so it is run hard every day. I know this isn't a UOA forum but seems a good way to make my point. Last UOA I did was last August with 4,184 hours.
Al 2
Chr 1
Fe 32
Cu 3
Pb 7
Tn 1
Moly 23
Mang 1
Pot 1
Bor 54
Si 4
Sod 3
Cal 1530
Mag 649
Phos 1021
Zn 1364
SUS Vis 73.4
cSt Vis 13.8
We generally do 300-400 hour change intervals on older engines with much higher hours yet.
Al 2
Chr 1
Fe 32
Cu 3
Pb 7
Tn 1
Moly 23
Mang 1
Pot 1
Bor 54
Si 4
Sod 3
Cal 1530
Mag 649
Phos 1021
Zn 1364
SUS Vis 73.4
cSt Vis 13.8
We generally do 300-400 hour change intervals on older engines with much higher hours yet.
Dino has kept my truck going 32 years and about 5 different cars to 10 years and 100K plus. Still i am going to Mobil 1 and longer OCI.
I don't have to wait for a sale... I get a 40% Syn Blend HDEO from my supplier for $9 a gallon, any day. Of course, that doesn't include tax but I don't have to waste my time in going to get it. I call, they deliver a barrel for $5.
I realize that most here will not go thru the volume of oil I do in a year, but even with multiple OCI's on the higher end boutique synthetics I have tried, I have not gotten better results from them than the oil I am using now. And at the prices I am paying, It is quite a stretch to think that it would be cost effective for me to do so. But then, some may see a benefit. After several million miles of operation of various vehicles/trucks I am convince that engines are like firearms.... one brand of ammunition will not give the same performance in all firearms like one brand of oil will not give the same performance in all engines... even from the same manufacturer. No matter the marketing hype. What works for one does not necessarily work as well for another.
Unfortunately, the boutique synthetics have a lot of layers of marketing and overhead factored into their pricing and, for most, the shipping can really add onto the pricing. Virtually all the off the shelf name brand oils are really out of line in pricing. But then, outfits like Mobil and Shell have to pay for race car sponsorships, free country music concerts for truckers at truck shows by big name entertainers, and million dollar ads on sports television. That all gets passed on to the consumer. Don't fall for the line that it costs so much more for R&D which leads to a superior product and that is why the oil is more expensive. That is only a few pixels of the picture.
I realize that most here will not go thru the volume of oil I do in a year, but even with multiple OCI's on the higher end boutique synthetics I have tried, I have not gotten better results from them than the oil I am using now. And at the prices I am paying, It is quite a stretch to think that it would be cost effective for me to do so. But then, some may see a benefit. After several million miles of operation of various vehicles/trucks I am convince that engines are like firearms.... one brand of ammunition will not give the same performance in all firearms like one brand of oil will not give the same performance in all engines... even from the same manufacturer. No matter the marketing hype. What works for one does not necessarily work as well for another.
Unfortunately, the boutique synthetics have a lot of layers of marketing and overhead factored into their pricing and, for most, the shipping can really add onto the pricing. Virtually all the off the shelf name brand oils are really out of line in pricing. But then, outfits like Mobil and Shell have to pay for race car sponsorships, free country music concerts for truckers at truck shows by big name entertainers, and million dollar ads on sports television. That all gets passed on to the consumer. Don't fall for the line that it costs so much more for R&D which leads to a superior product and that is why the oil is more expensive. That is only a few pixels of the picture.
Forgot to include this observation regarding Amsoil specifically...
They sell Donaldson Filters, which I use in a lot of my trucks and equipment. I can get them from a local retailer for roughly 30-40% less than what Amsoil sells them for, even at PC prices. And I didn't even factor in what Amsoil would charge to ship them to me. Found that to be also true of NGK spark plugs that Amsoil has on their website. Now, that makes me wonder about their pricing on oil. Kind of get that same feeling when I price a John Deere versus another tractor brand. Would I be paying more for just a name?
They sell Donaldson Filters, which I use in a lot of my trucks and equipment. I can get them from a local retailer for roughly 30-40% less than what Amsoil sells them for, even at PC prices. And I didn't even factor in what Amsoil would charge to ship them to me. Found that to be also true of NGK spark plugs that Amsoil has on their website. Now, that makes me wonder about their pricing on oil. Kind of get that same feeling when I price a John Deere versus another tractor brand. Would I be paying more for just a name?
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