In the past I worked in search and rescue and I was present at the aftermath of several house fires and also several aircraft crashes and their subsequent fires and there were always SOME human remains. It takes one hell of a fire and over an extended period of time to destroy everything. I doubt there was any auto ignition inside of the Titan, everything happened too fast and there would have been a wall of water pouring in instantly behind whatever collapsed. The bodies were probably pulverized but I expect that most of the body(s) remain, if they can find them. Keep in mind that they did find bodies, or at least identifiable remains, in the Kursk and the other Russian submarine that the Glomar Explorer recovered.
Human remains have likely been recovered from the Titan submersible wreckage, US Coast Guard says
The U.S. Coast Guard says it has likely recovered human remains from the wreckage of the Titan submersible.apnews.com
So much for theories of instant total destruction of human bodies.
Submersible wreckage brought to surface.
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JHZR2
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Yes, that concept of heat never made sense beyond the theory.Human remains have likely been recovered from the Titan submersible wreckage, US Coast Guard says
The U.S. Coast Guard says it has likely recovered human remains from the wreckage of the Titan submersible.
So much for theories of instant total destruction of human bodies.
Instantaneous compression, sure. Heat, sure, in a tiny volume being backfilled by massive quantities of near freezing water. Insufficient oxygen to fully burn anything, maybe enough heat to pyrolize some carbon content.
I suspect they’ll find crushed human remains, sadly.
As a more practical matter the army knows what it takes to instantly incinerate a human body and have studies (amongst other things) on the subject.
It is unlikely the amount of heat and duration is adequate to do much.
Probably. Ideally. But that's just not going to happen any time that there is an investigation. Besides, I expect that the families will want back whatever remains that there are.
In the US, unless someone dies in the hospital or in hospice, or under their care, and their imminent death was expected, there is ALWAYS an investigation by law enforcement. Today if they find a body or any human remains outside of a known burial site, they (law enforcement and the medical examiner) remove it and analyze it to determine who it was and if it in an ancient native burial or a more recent death and the circumstances of the death. If it turns out to be a native then the remains are turned over to the nearest native tribe for reburial in accordance with their customs.
I expect that most countries have similar requirements.
It looked like the rings that were bonded (GLUED) to the carbon tub are intact.
Scott Manley had a quote I thought summed it up (paraphrased) 'at that depth the human being ceases to be biology and instantly turns into physics'
Scott Manley had a quote I thought summed it up (paraphrased) 'at that depth the human being ceases to be biology and instantly turns into physics'
10,000°F and 600 psi pressure. Goo and a few little pieces are all that's left.
Engineer here of 32 years experience, and most of it in pressure handling equipment (the power stations only operate at half of the pressure of that depth)...when the incident first started, and we started seeing the design of the "vehicle" come out, I said to my wife that it had categorically imploded...and that it would have been incredibly quick and probably beyond their comprehension as it happened, but fearful that there would have been some seconds for them to realise that it was about to happen.
Of course the temperatures fromed by the compression would have been immense...however that would be surface charring as the water caught up...humans crushed and ripped to pieces, not incinerated...for many of the reasons JHZR2 elucidated.
The implosion reaching itself on the other side causes a huge pressure wave that is more than capable of destrying many more things.
The design...
* should be a sphere for external pressure, not a tube...stresses in a tube are twice that of a sphere simply and for started.
* tubes such as that are often "false circles" (extreme version of that is the Wankel rotor, where the "diameter" is constant, but it's clearly not a circle, and would want to crush.
* the tube has to merge into the spherical ends, causing a serious discontinuity for stresses to rise in the transition.
* The discontinuity was made worse by a change in materials and section to the titanium end caps...both of these will have different rates of change of diameter under pressure, causing additional stresses...
* and thus they glued them together with epoxy (or something like it).
* and the structure becomes a column in compression, with "unstable" end pinnings, those stresses additive to the problems listed above.
This 55 year old..................male...with grey hair, shuddered and got angry as I looked through the "design". That should never have been imposed on innocents (regardless of what I feel of their choises and spending)
Of course the temperatures fromed by the compression would have been immense...however that would be surface charring as the water caught up...humans crushed and ripped to pieces, not incinerated...for many of the reasons JHZR2 elucidated.
The implosion reaching itself on the other side causes a huge pressure wave that is more than capable of destrying many more things.
The design...
* should be a sphere for external pressure, not a tube...stresses in a tube are twice that of a sphere simply and for started.
* tubes such as that are often "false circles" (extreme version of that is the Wankel rotor, where the "diameter" is constant, but it's clearly not a circle, and would want to crush.
* the tube has to merge into the spherical ends, causing a serious discontinuity for stresses to rise in the transition.
* The discontinuity was made worse by a change in materials and section to the titanium end caps...both of these will have different rates of change of diameter under pressure, causing additional stresses...
* and thus they glued them together with epoxy (or something like it).
* and the structure becomes a column in compression, with "unstable" end pinnings, those stresses additive to the problems listed above.
This 55 year old..................male...with grey hair, shuddered and got angry as I looked through the "design". That should never have been imposed on innocents (regardless of what I feel of their choises and spending)
As to my statement about a few seconds potentially to think about their future...this explains my thoughts...note that the discontinuity and changes in directions stress crack around the point that the epoxy joint lives on the sub...but it holds, and then the lack of lateral support for the cylinder allows complete failure.
Also note the bottle cap at the other end when the hydroforming shockwave hits it.
Also note the bottle cap at the other end when the hydroforming shockwave hits it.
The idea of a sphere makes total sense in every way possible in which articulately described here Shannow.
Similar in fact to a very, very intelligent man who built his custom home in Florida in a spherical shape. The house was right on the Gulf of Mexico and the house was made of reinforced concrete and had the shape of a Gallic ball. Like the Epcot center also located in Florida.
Because of that design the house could easily survive 200 plus mph winds. And the house was 30 feet above normal high tide. A hurricane chasing group stayed in that house during Hurricane Ivan.
That spherical shape balances pressure evenly and doesn’t allow stress to build up in one particular area. Has long as the materials for construction are right for the pressures that will be applied… It is a perfect design for deep sea or even an above ground storm shelter.
In that home build the same features made it exceptionally great in dealing with high winds.
I'm not an engineer but anyone with an OUNCE of sense could see this uncertified poorly tested "vessel" created by people hired for reasons OTHER THAN merit, is doomed to drastically and fantastically fail. I barely care about this event - label me a GHOUL if you will - other than as a cautionary lesson for others. Another tale of folks with more money than brains. A cylinder, with odd shapes, carbon fibers, lacking certifications, using glues, inexpensive parts like the reported video game joystick, and so forth. Unreal. Simply unreal. These companies, across the board with their "agendas," need to learn painful lessons. Before we ALL SUFFER with our airline pilots, bridge engineers, surgeons, etc. hired for reasons other than merit.
In the time it took for me to read the 3rd thread about these morons, thousands of people in the world died due to lack of clean water, food, shelter, or inexpensive medicine. You'll never hear about them or know their names or read headline news. The money these elites spent on this adventure tourism, could have saved these suffering poor.
That is all.
6,000 psi I meant to say. Pressure-cooked plus kinetic energy from getting impacted by debris and water from all sides.
Or a tooth/teeth and/or bone fragments.
Good interview with Cameron on this whole thing.
My understanding is that the guy with the money, the CEO, Stockton Rush, also liked to play submarine engineer. Lots of other actually qualified people told him he was taking to much risk, both inside and outside OceanGate, but he knew better?
Twisting this story into a cautionary tale of hiring people not on merit seems a bit of a stretch? Does anyone have any evidence that anyone else but Mr. Rush is responsible for this engineering failure?
A piece of marketing fluff designed to appeal to the customers of OceanGate, doesn't give any indication of their hiring practices.
Was it this one:
Florida's iconic 'dome home' built to survive hurricanes is destroyed
The final blow: How the legendary landmark 'dome home' in Cape Romano, Florida that was originally built to withstand deadly storm surges succumbed to Hurricane Ian
This guy was an arrogant, condescending jerk. (Rush). When one of his own engineers severely questioned the safety of his design, he fired him on the spot, and gave him 10 minutes to gather his things and vacate the building.
He hired based on diversity. Not based on knowledge, and the best qualifications for the job. He was repeatedly warned by other people with far more experience than him in deep submergence, that he was making too many shortcuts, and taking unnecessary and dangerous chances.
He was also told by engineers with far more experience than himself, that carbon fiber was NOT sound material to be used in this application. And that by using it, he was placing himself, and his paying customers in a very compromising position that risked their, and his own safety.
He ignored most everyone who told him anything he didn't want to hear. Now he's dead because of both his stubbornness and arrogance. He got what he set himself up for.
I have some sympathy for the others. In spite of the fact they should have known better. There were a lot of people making plenty of noise about this guy, and his methods.
And now I read that some people are outraged because Netflix is bringing back the movie Titanic on July 1st. Grow up!
The real thing that’s outrageous is the entire OceanGate operation.
Scott
The real thing that’s outrageous is the entire OceanGate operation.
Scott
Proof? I assume he hired "yes" men and women. One guy called him on the engineering and he fired and then sued him...
I'm surprised it made it down even ine diveAt least one rendition was, there were a few different manufacturers, I believe this was the first one they used and retired after finding issues.
The one that dived and imploded was likely made by Electroimpact and Janicki Industries
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This seems to be the consensus among some experts. If there was only one vessel making the voyages, then Titan had made 13 previous trips to the Titanic: 6 in 2021 and 7 in 2022. This ill-fated trip was the first for this year, No. 14. It was probably one too many compression cycles, leading to catastrophic failure.
Carbon fiber is not the wonder material some people seem to think it is. It is not that good in shear or compression compared with many metals. When it fails, it does so without warning. It also does not weather well (was the Titan stored outside when not in use?) and eventually causes corrosion in metal in contact with it. None of that is good in this application either.
You also have to consider the properties, strength, and adhesion of whatever resins and glues are used to fabricate it, which are topics I seldom see discussed when people praise carbon fiber.
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