You guys that say the market will force people into small cars are simply wrong! It will entice people with half a brain who don't like debt to. You can rack up all the debt you want in our system and then declare bankruptcy and start over again. The system is designed that way because it means profit. If we actually had a real monetary policy based on what people could actually afford in our society, you can darn well bet people would be driving small gas sippers. They do all over the rest of the world.
Should C.A.F.E standards be raised even higher?
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My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
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Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
You're still wrong. Even if oil companies weren't subsidized, they could still only sell their product for a price the market can bear. If they weren't subsidized, they'd have to get along on a reasonable profit, instead of the insane ones they're currently making...
My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
You're still wrong. Even if oil companies weren't subsidized, they could still only sell their product for a price the market can bear. If they weren't subsidized, they'd have to get along on a reasonable profit, instead of the insane ones they're currently making...
Imagining you know the reasons someone bought their car is purely conjecture. You may be VERY wrong. Though your 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder what if the cars owner doesn't care?
Some people could care less what the rest of society does, thinks, etc. The happiest day in your life is when you quit worrying about what others think and just do what you need to do for your own reasons.
Drew99GT is spot on with the debt thing. The credit card companies started sending my children applications and pre-approved cards before they were out of High School! They want you to get used to making payments.
Some people could care less what the rest of society does, thinks, etc. The happiest day in your life is when you quit worrying about what others think and just do what you need to do for your own reasons.
Drew99GT is spot on with the debt thing. The credit card companies started sending my children applications and pre-approved cards before they were out of High School! They want you to get used to making payments.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Imagining you know the reasons someone bought their car is purely conjecture. You may be VERY wrong. Though your 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder what if the cars owner doesn't care?
I'm not trying to insinuate that everyone (especially ones who can actually afford them) who buys new SUVs or sports cars or whatever are trying to be hip or cool or whatever. But marketing and social "norms" if you want to call them that, certainly play a large part in why many people just have to have to have to drive gas hog SUVs and 300 hp family sedans!
If you're a car guy and like running your 400 hp SRT8 at the strip and show up a ricer here and there, that's an entirely different thing. You likely bought that car because you're a gear head and it's a hobby.
I'm in no way advocating that the government force anyone to do anything in their buying and driving decisions. Just pointing out perhaps why any attempts at regulation or letting "the market" dictate what cars people drive, would be somewhat futile. It's pretty obvious that $4/gallon gas doesn't persuade a lot of people who can't afford it and the big gas hogs they drive, from driving them, because they still can get away with it! I don't know where the line would be. 5 bucks? 6 bucks a gallon?
Imagining you know the reasons someone bought their car is purely conjecture. You may be VERY wrong. Though your 'cool' is in the eye of the beholder what if the cars owner doesn't care?
I'm not trying to insinuate that everyone (especially ones who can actually afford them) who buys new SUVs or sports cars or whatever are trying to be hip or cool or whatever. But marketing and social "norms" if you want to call them that, certainly play a large part in why many people just have to have to have to drive gas hog SUVs and 300 hp family sedans!
If you're a car guy and like running your 400 hp SRT8 at the strip and show up a ricer here and there, that's an entirely different thing. You likely bought that car because you're a gear head and it's a hobby.
I'm in no way advocating that the government force anyone to do anything in their buying and driving decisions. Just pointing out perhaps why any attempts at regulation or letting "the market" dictate what cars people drive, would be somewhat futile. It's pretty obvious that $4/gallon gas doesn't persuade a lot of people who can't afford it and the big gas hogs they drive, from driving them, because they still can get away with it! I don't know where the line would be. 5 bucks? 6 bucks a gallon?
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I don't know where the line would be. 5 bucks? 6 bucks a gallon?
Well almost $10 a gallon isnt stopping a lot of Germans from buying V12 cars and other high HP cars.
Large home market for big Audi,BMW and MB.
There is no line for those who can afford it.
I don't know where the line would be. 5 bucks? 6 bucks a gallon?
Well almost $10 a gallon isnt stopping a lot of Germans from buying V12 cars and other high HP cars.
Large home market for big Audi,BMW and MB.
There is no line for those who can afford it.
Originally Posted By: Trav
There is no line for those who can afford it.
That's the problem though! BITOG as a whole is filled with people who are pretty intelligent.
The average American has 20 grand in credit card debt, they buy new cars on credit, they pay for most things on credit, buy homes they know they can't afford. Why do they do this? Because they can. It's the way our system is designed to function in this day and age.
A guy I worked with at my last job was the epitome of the average 30 something person: big home, new SUV, new car for the wife, all on a $12/hr job, combined with his wife's $12/hr job. 10s of thousands in debt etc. etc. When I was talking to him about our companies 401K, I might as well have brought up nuclear physics. He didn't care because he could just keep racking up the debt.
There is no line for those who can afford it.
That's the problem though! BITOG as a whole is filled with people who are pretty intelligent.
The average American has 20 grand in credit card debt, they buy new cars on credit, they pay for most things on credit, buy homes they know they can't afford. Why do they do this? Because they can. It's the way our system is designed to function in this day and age.
A guy I worked with at my last job was the epitome of the average 30 something person: big home, new SUV, new car for the wife, all on a $12/hr job, combined with his wife's $12/hr job. 10s of thousands in debt etc. etc. When I was talking to him about our companies 401K, I might as well have brought up nuclear physics. He didn't care because he could just keep racking up the debt.
Sadly this is normal for many. We have friends who recently divorced. Beautiful new cars, big house, jet skis, boat, 4 wheelers, etc.
The now ex-wife was forced to split DEBTS with her Husband!!!
They didn't own a thing.
I have another person I know who leveraged his home to buy a Boat and a Truck to tow it! Never gave it a thought.
Just for the record, I own everything in my driveway, no payments on anything. The only debt we have is our home, and I pay it down aggressively as I can afford it. This economy is really scary for us biz owners, as we never know which way to turn.
The now ex-wife was forced to split DEBTS with her Husband!!!
They didn't own a thing.
I have another person I know who leveraged his home to buy a Boat and a Truck to tow it! Never gave it a thought.
Just for the record, I own everything in my driveway, no payments on anything. The only debt we have is our home, and I pay it down aggressively as I can afford it. This economy is really scary for us biz owners, as we never know which way to turn.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Sadly this is normal for many. We have friends who recently divorced. Beautiful new cars, big house, jet skis, boat, 4 wheelers, etc.
The now ex-wife was forced to split DEBTS with her Husband!!!
They didn't own a thing.
I have another person I know who leveraged his home to buy a Boat and a Truck to tow it! Never gave it a thought.
Just for the record, I own everything in my driveway, no payments on anything. The only debt we have is our home, and I pay it down aggressively as I can afford it. This economy is really scary for us biz owners, as we never know which way to turn.
I can relate. When I was in the Air Force I worked with a captain who had a beautiful home, a brand new Ford F-350, a brand new Honda Odyessy, two jet skis, and an expensive boat. Everything he had was purchased with borrowed money. I don't know how people can live like that.
Sadly this is normal for many. We have friends who recently divorced. Beautiful new cars, big house, jet skis, boat, 4 wheelers, etc.
The now ex-wife was forced to split DEBTS with her Husband!!!
They didn't own a thing.
I have another person I know who leveraged his home to buy a Boat and a Truck to tow it! Never gave it a thought.
Just for the record, I own everything in my driveway, no payments on anything. The only debt we have is our home, and I pay it down aggressively as I can afford it. This economy is really scary for us biz owners, as we never know which way to turn.
I can relate. When I was in the Air Force I worked with a captain who had a beautiful home, a brand new Ford F-350, a brand new Honda Odyessy, two jet skis, and an expensive boat. Everything he had was purchased with borrowed money. I don't know how people can live like that.
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I'd rather just see a gas guzzler tax on low gas milage vehicles.
How much tax and what is "low mileage"?
I'd rather just see a gas guzzler tax on low gas milage vehicles.
How much tax and what is "low mileage"?
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You guys that say the market will force people into small cars are simply wrong!
Then what should we do?
You guys that say the market will force people into small cars are simply wrong!
Then what should we do?
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
You guys that say the market will force people into small cars are simply wrong!
Then what should we do?
Keep voting?
Quote:
You guys that say the market will force people into small cars are simply wrong!
Then what should we do?
Keep voting?
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
You're still wrong. Even if oil companies weren't subsidized, they could still only sell their product for a price the market can bear. If they weren't subsidized, they'd have to get along on a reasonable profit, instead of the insane ones they're currently making...
Somehow I doubt the oil companies are going to voluntarily accept less profit. I don't think their shareholders would enjoy that. So if their bottoms lines were not subsidized by the taxpayer - as they are now - their profit will come from the gas pump, hence gas prices so high your head would spin.
And before you say that demand will slack off, just look at all the people in this thread who are proud that they'll NEVER conserve.
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
You're still wrong. Even if oil companies weren't subsidized, they could still only sell their product for a price the market can bear. If they weren't subsidized, they'd have to get along on a reasonable profit, instead of the insane ones they're currently making...
Somehow I doubt the oil companies are going to voluntarily accept less profit. I don't think their shareholders would enjoy that. So if their bottoms lines were not subsidized by the taxpayer - as they are now - their profit will come from the gas pump, hence gas prices so high your head would spin.
And before you say that demand will slack off, just look at all the people in this thread who are proud that they'll NEVER conserve.
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
You're still wrong. Even if oil companies weren't subsidized, they could still only sell their product for a price the market can bear. If they weren't subsidized, they'd have to get along on a reasonable profit, instead of the insane ones they're currently making...
Somehow I doubt the oil companies are going to voluntarily accept less profit. I don't think their shareholders would enjoy that. So if their bottoms lines were not subsidized by the taxpayer - as they are now - their profit will come from the gas pump, hence gas prices so high your head would spin.
And before you say that demand will slack off, just look at all the people in this thread who are proud that they'll NEVER conserve.
There is nothing voluntary about it, the Gov't is the one volunteering the subsidy not the oil co. There is a failure in your logic, you say the oil co will take as much profit as they can, then why are they not maximising their profits right now while they are subsidised? Higher prices has and does curb demand, you need to look at real statistics not follow a gut feeling or what other people are telling you.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: antonmnster
My point is that the price of oil is artificially low because of billions and billions of dollars' worth of subsidies that are paid directly by the government to oil companies, as well as tax breaks that exempt oil companies from paying the same effective rate that you or I would pay if we ran a business. If they had to pay their fair share of taxes and operate without government funding, gas would not be affordable.
If you want a pure market on the car production end, then you must also support a pure market on the oil supply end. But you wouldn't like the result.
You're still wrong. Even if oil companies weren't subsidized, they could still only sell their product for a price the market can bear. If they weren't subsidized, they'd have to get along on a reasonable profit, instead of the insane ones they're currently making...
Somehow I doubt the oil companies are going to voluntarily accept less profit. I don't think their shareholders would enjoy that. So if their bottoms lines were not subsidized by the taxpayer - as they are now - their profit will come from the gas pump, hence gas prices so high your head would spin.
And before you say that demand will slack off, just look at all the people in this thread who are proud that they'll NEVER conserve.
There is nothing voluntary about it, the Gov't is the one volunteering the subsidy not the oil co. There is a failure in your logic, you say the oil co will take as much profit as they can, then why are they not maximising their profits right now while they are subsidised? Higher prices has and does curb demand, you need to look at real statistics not follow a gut feeling or what other people are telling you.
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Originally Posted By: antonmnster
Somehow I doubt the oil companies are going to voluntarily accept less profit. I don't think their shareholders would enjoy that. So if their bottoms lines were not subsidized by the taxpayer - as they are now - their profit will come from the gas pump, hence gas prices so high your head would spin.
And before you say that demand will slack off, just look at all the people in this thread who are proud that they'll NEVER conserve.
Your notion that the sky's the limit on gas prices is simply ridiculous. If oil companies could set the price anywhere they wanted it, then why isn't gas $10, or $20 a gal now? You think just because they're subsidized, that's the reason they're charging us ONLY $3.50 a gal? Oil companies charge the absolute maximum a given economy can bear to pay. If our economy could pay $10 a gal, they'd be charging that much. So even if they weren't subsidize, the oil companies would have no choice but to accept lower profits...
Somehow I doubt the oil companies are going to voluntarily accept less profit. I don't think their shareholders would enjoy that. So if their bottoms lines were not subsidized by the taxpayer - as they are now - their profit will come from the gas pump, hence gas prices so high your head would spin.
And before you say that demand will slack off, just look at all the people in this thread who are proud that they'll NEVER conserve.
Your notion that the sky's the limit on gas prices is simply ridiculous. If oil companies could set the price anywhere they wanted it, then why isn't gas $10, or $20 a gal now? You think just because they're subsidized, that's the reason they're charging us ONLY $3.50 a gal? Oil companies charge the absolute maximum a given economy can bear to pay. If our economy could pay $10 a gal, they'd be charging that much. So even if they weren't subsidize, the oil companies would have no choice but to accept lower profits...
Since they're publicly traded the oil companies are simply a conduit for tax money to make it into their investors' pockets. Probably with a slice off the top for CEO bonuses.
Fortunately my motor fuel is only 90% gas, the rest of my money goes to the nice people at ADM. Oh wait.
Fortunately my motor fuel is only 90% gas, the rest of my money goes to the nice people at ADM. Oh wait.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Since they're publicly traded the oil companies are simply a conduit for tax money to make it into their investors' pockets. Probably with a slice off the top for CEO bonuses.
Fortunately my motor fuel is only 90% gas, the rest of my money goes to the nice people at ADM. Oh wait.
That's pretty much the deal. Toss in a Congress that is willing to take millions (and millions and millions) of dollars in the form of political contributions from K Street oil - and ethanol - lobbyists who, in turn, write all of our energy policy legislation, and you have what we have.
The foxes are guarding the henhouse.
Since they're publicly traded the oil companies are simply a conduit for tax money to make it into their investors' pockets. Probably with a slice off the top for CEO bonuses.
Fortunately my motor fuel is only 90% gas, the rest of my money goes to the nice people at ADM. Oh wait.
That's pretty much the deal. Toss in a Congress that is willing to take millions (and millions and millions) of dollars in the form of political contributions from K Street oil - and ethanol - lobbyists who, in turn, write all of our energy policy legislation, and you have what we have.
The foxes are guarding the henhouse.
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