Shop refused to mount my tires

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Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
If you define increased oversteer and increased understeer as ""quicker" handling," then you are correct.


You can't get both more oversteer and more understeer at the same time by decreasing sidewall stiffness front AND back at the same time.

You can improve transient response by doing so.
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YOU are the only one saying "front AND back at the same time."

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Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
YOU are the only one saying "front AND back at the same time."


YOU wrote:

"If you define increased oversteer and increased understeer as 'quicker' handling," then you are correct. But I think you would be the only one to apply such a definition."

in response to my:

"The reduction in slip angle is why moving to a lower profile tire, or increasing inflation pressure, also results in 'quicker' handling."

If I replace all four tires with a lower profile tire, or increase the inflation pressure in all four tires, I've made this change front AND back at the same time. This will improve transient response on all four tires, and improvements in transient response are described as "quicker" handling. It has nothing to do with oversteer and understeer.

Do you understand the terms "slip angle", "transient response", "oversteer", and "understeer"?



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Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
YOU are the only one saying "front AND back at the same time."


YOU wrote:

"If you define increased oversteer and increased understeer as 'quicker' handling," then you are correct. But I think you would be the only one to apply such a definition."

in response to my:

"The reduction in slip angle is why moving to a lower profile tire, or increasing inflation pressure, also results in 'quicker' handling."

If I replace all four tires with a lower profile tire, or increase the inflation pressure in all four tires, I've made this change front AND back at the same time. This will improve transient response on all four tires, and improvements in transient response are described as "quicker" handling. It has nothing to do with oversteer and understeer.

Do you understand the terms "slip angle", "transient response", "oversteer", and "understeer"?



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Increasing pressure will generally improve transient response, but reduces the contact patch (which reduces the ultimate grip). IOW, the limit before understeer or oversteer occurs moves down even though the car feels like it handles "better".
 
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Increasing pressure will generally improve transient response, but reduces the contact patch (which reduces the ultimate grip). IOW, the limit before understeer or oversteer occurs moves down even though the car feels like it handles "better".


If you are looking at the point at which tire adhesion to the road surface is overcome, that may or may not be true depending on the tire pressure before the increase and the load on the tire. But oversteer and understeer occur prior to the loss of tire adhesion. Oversteer and understeer are described by the ratio of the front to rear slip angles.

The improvement in transient response has to do with the change in slip angle, not the size of the contact patch. If we hold all variables constant - load, temperature, and anything else - and run the vehicle on a skidpad we’ll find there is an optimum tire pressure for cornering traction above which and below which grip deteriorates.

However, transient response to steering inputs is separate from ultimate grip on a skidpad.
 
Originally Posted By: Rand
You can post whatever you want but I'd advise you to read any posts by capriracer carefully.

or you will look foolish. Linking a source is one thing but 30years in the business is different.

also there are many factors at work in tire design. you cant just talk about a few of them and draw a complete conclusion.

The basic information in your post is relatively correct, but some of the conclusion(s)are misleading or just plain wrong.


This. Capriracer is a tire engineer with decades of experience.

Wilhelm D, will you presume to "educate" me on carrier landings next?
 
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
YOU are the only one saying "front AND back at the same time."


YOU wrote:

"If you define increased oversteer and increased understeer as 'quicker' handling," then you are correct. But I think you would be the only one to apply such a definition."

in response to my:

"The reduction in slip angle is why moving to a lower profile tire, or increasing inflation pressure, also results in 'quicker' handling."

If I replace all four tires with a lower profile tire, or increase the inflation pressure in all four tires, I've made this change front AND back at the same time. This will improve transient response on all four tires, and improvements in transient response are described as "quicker" handling. It has nothing to do with oversteer and understeer.

Do you understand the terms "slip angle", "transient response", "oversteer", and "understeer"?



.


31.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Rand
You can post whatever you want but I'd advise you to read any posts by capriracer carefully.

or you will look foolish. Linking a source is one thing but 30years in the business is different.

also there are many factors at work in tire design. you cant just talk about a few of them and draw a complete conclusion.

The basic information in your post is relatively correct, but some of the conclusion(s)are misleading or just plain wrong.


This. Capriracer is a tire engineer with decades of experience.

Wilhelm D, will you presume to "educate" me on carrier landings next?


The above illustrates the unfortunate tendency in these Forums for some individuals to make matters personal.
 
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Rand
You can post whatever you want but I'd advise you to read any posts by capriracer carefully.

or you will look foolish. Linking a source is one thing but 30years in the business is different.

also there are many factors at work in tire design. you cant just talk about a few of them and draw a complete conclusion.

The basic information in your post is relatively correct, but some of the conclusion(s)are misleading or just plain wrong.


This. Capriracer is a tire engineer with decades of experience.

Wilhelm D, will you presume to "educate" me on carrier landings next?


The above illustrates the unfortunate tendency in these Forums for some individuals to make matters personal.



I disagree. I would encourage you to post your tire expertise credentials, and if your credentials are superior to Capriracer I'm sure many here will be happy to default to your judgment. If your only credentials are pointing to a few Internet articles and drawing uninformed conclusions, then I'm sure most of us will continue to listen to and respect what Capriracer has to say.
 
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D

The above illustrates the unfortunate tendency in these Forums for some individuals to make matters personal.


You mean like this?

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D

Do you understand the terms "slip angle", "transient response", "oversteer", and "understeer"?


YOU are the one making this personal
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Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
I love the internet. It makes me feel like I'm back in the third grade.


Young and innocent?

Krzys
 
Originally Posted By: krzyss
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
I love the internet. It makes me feel like I'm back in the third grade.


Young and innocent?

Krzys


Recess in midmorning and a nap after lunch?

Being self employed is the best thing I ever did...
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Nevertheless, what makes a T speed rated tire into an H rated tire is the circumferential cap ply.


I took several minutes to look at this. In order to make it simple, I took a look at several sizes of Continental and General tires, brands whose line-ups in the American market are small enough to make confirming it easy.

I can't find a single example in either brand where a T rated version of either is represented in an H rated version which differs only in the circumferential cap ply.

Can you point to an example in either brand?



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Originally Posted By: stephen9666
My T-rated Hankook H727s have a cap ply.


I see the Goodyear Assurance TripleTred All-Season in size 215-60-16 is available in a T AND a V rated rated version, BOTH of which share the same tread, BOTH of which have a circumferential cap ply.

I wonder what makes one T-rated and one V-rated?





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tire construction? testing? marketing?

the tire engineers are goodyear know.. and they dont have to tell you.

What makes some H rated tires handle better than some W rated tires? the tire construction. Which no one really talks about.

I was simply saying dont step on your.... "sword" by trying to correct capriracer.. who WAS a tire engineer.... you are likely missing something.

nothing personal here.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: stephen9666
My T-rated Hankook H727s have a cap ply.


I see the Goodyear Assurance TripleTred All-Season in size 215-60-16 is available in a T AND a V rated rated version, BOTH of which share the same tread, BOTH of which have a circumferential cap ply.

I wonder what makes one T-rated and one V-rated?


Are the UTQG numbers different?
 
According to capriracer's web site, it sounds like adding additional layers to the cap ply will allow you to achieve a higher speed rating. I don't want to put words into his mouth, but that's what I gather from the paragraph quoted below.

"To get a tire to pass an H speed rating almost requires the tire to have an overlay - commonly called a "cap ply" and nylon is a commonly used material.

This overlay restricts the growth of the tire due to centrifugal forces as well as the movement caused by the standing wave. Not only does this result in reduced stresses in the tire, it also reduces heat generation.

Adding further overlay layers results in higher speed capability. That is, you achieve higher speed capability with just changes in construction. Rubber compound changes are almost incidental."
 
OK, I thought we weren't going to go any further and the discussion would end, but I see that wasn't the case. So here goes. Please note I am going to GENERALIZE about mid-sized Standard Load passenger car tires made of polyester and steel (and nylon, of course, the subject of this discussion).

Why all the caveats? So that when people look to verify what I wrote (and I encourage people to do so), they be able to spot exceptions - and there are plenty out there.

And let me state clearly, I encourage any skeptics to call the tire manufacturers to check on what is below. I used to answer those questions for one of those manufacturers, and I will tell you that wording the responses was done very carefully - and sometimes we would not answer the question because of the way it was worded. In other words, "Your mileage may vary".

So here's a summary for mid sized (about 100 LI) Standard Load passenger car tires made of polyester and steel (and nylon):


S rated tires don't need cap plies.

Exception: Some tire manufacturers produce S rated tires with a cap ply. Why? Because tires with cap plies hardly ever fail from the dreaded belt-leaving-belt separation - aka tread separation.

T rated tires will have cap strips - nylon overlays on the belt edges - not a full cap ply. These strips will not be listed as part of the construction on the sidewall of the tire.

Exception: As with S rated tires, some tire manufacturers put on cap plies on T rated tires. Another exception is that some tire manufacturers live a little closer to the edge and don't use cap strips.

H rated tires need a full cap ply (and the exception here is those that live dangerously will only have cap strips)

V rated tires will have 2 cap plies. I don't know of any exceptions, but I assume there must be.

W and Y rated tires have have 3 layers of cap ply at the edge edges and 2 across the rest of the belt.

Note: Nowadays, cap plies are applied in a thin strip that is spiraled on. It is possible to apply as little or as much depending on the traverse speed of the applier.

You won't find 3 layers listed on the sidewall of W and Y rated tires and you probably won't have any tire manufacturer admitting to 3 layers

Second Note: What about Z rated tires? I'm not going to talk about them because Z is an odd duck. It is open ended. Technically, W and Y rated tires are Z rated tires with a restriction, but there are true Z rated tire - tires that are rated to speeds higher then 149 mph, but the exact rating speed is defined by the tire manufacturer. Each is an individual case.

Third Note: U speed rated tires. Sharp eyed readers will note that the speed rating chart includes a U speed rating between T and H. So why aren't there any U speed rated tires?

It turns out that in order to pass a U speed rating, you are almost obligated to use a cap ply - and if you do that, the tire can pass an H rating, so why not call it that?

As I pointed out earlier, some tire manufacturers use cap plies on S and T rated tires. One of the lessons from the Ford/Firestone thing some years back (has it really been 13 years?) is that tires with cap plies fail at a much lower rate (it's on the order of 10 fold or more) - and since these failures are the source of all the lawsuits (not to mention recalls), many tire manufacturers have chosen to use cap plies even when they are unnecessary to pass the speed rating test.

And another little wrinkle that I find interesting: Small tires are easier to pass the speed rating test than large tires. It is common for the larger tires to be reinforced with those cap strips and cap plies while their little brothers in a smaller size are not.

If you want to verify this (and I encourage you to do so), call the tire manufacturers. You will have to be careful about the question you ask as you might trigger their defense mechanism and get a "company proprietary" response. I suggest you ask about the construction of a specific tire (meaning make, model and size).
 
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