and again...
Thanks to Mori I figured out this place must be IMPORTANT!
And i didn't even need to be banned first...
Thanks to Mori I figured out this place must be IMPORTANT!
And i didn't even need to be banned first...
School shooting, near Seattle
- Thread starter CourierDriver
- Start date
- Status
It must be to come back a dozen or more times under different user names, being that obsessive could be a sign of other problems too. Who knows.
Apollo14 said:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And heat of the moment? Yeah, I'm going to get my keys, unlock my gun safe, grab my 12 gauge, put some 00 buck in the tube, go back downstairs, chamber a round, and then blow somebody away all in the "heat of the moment". Or am I more likely to grab a knife off the counter (if I'm nuts) and just stab somebody? What is more convenient?
Well according to the statistics, arguments are the leading cause of homicide and 60% of the time a firearm is the weapon used.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...e-data-table-11
And the vast, VAST majority of that 60%, according to those stats, were performed with hand guns, which the person probably had on them, supporting what I just said above.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And heat of the moment? Yeah, I'm going to get my keys, unlock my gun safe, grab my 12 gauge, put some 00 buck in the tube, go back downstairs, chamber a round, and then blow somebody away all in the "heat of the moment". Or am I more likely to grab a knife off the counter (if I'm nuts) and just stab somebody? What is more convenient?
Well according to the statistics, arguments are the leading cause of homicide and 60% of the time a firearm is the weapon used.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...e-data-table-11
And the vast, VAST majority of that 60%, according to those stats, were performed with hand guns, which the person probably had on them, supporting what I just said above.
Nothing will prevent another Virginia Tech style shooting.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And in mentioning China, I mentioned Australia and Western Europe, countries you can I hope more directly compare to the US. Again, they have a murder rate of 1 per 100,000, the US has 4.7 per 100,000
Yes, and Australia has a much higher rape percentage, you chose those places on purpose to support your side of the argument.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Nobody disagrees with this fact. What some are trying to point out is that if we compare ourselves with countries that we should be comparing ourselves with, we have a far higher murder rate and most of our murders are carried out by firearm. Should we not be trying to understand why they have a lower murder rate while having minimal firearm ownership?
I don't think anybody is denying you have a higher murder rate than some other first world nations. But is there proof that by reducing the number of firearms, this rate will go down? If the USA has a "violence problem" as you seem to suggest, then it isn't going to.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
I love it how you pick a few examples to make your point while ignoring the more pertinent examples!
You gave some examples that supported your side, so I gave a few that didn't. I find the one particularly interesting with roughly 50% firearms ownership as the USA, yet 1/4 the murder rate.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
North Korea is 5.2 compared to US 4.7 according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Well according to this:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/North-Korea/United-States/Crime
The murder rate in North Korea is 4x higher than the USA per 1 million people.
Which is also supported by this page:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/north-korea
Quote:
In North Korea, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2008: 15.26
2004: 18.907
2002: 19.50
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And I take it you agree that we are closer to the murder rates in Iraq, Afghanistan & Pakistan than to overall Western Europe rates.
I didn't bother looking those up. I found that there were a number of nations with a disproportionate percentage of firearms to murders and figured I'd leave it at that. I think there are other things in play than just the guns.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
On that subject, again you decide to pick a few small European countries. Why not the larger countries such as the UK, France & Germany? So let's go for "Europe" as a whole instead huh? America vs "Europe" is 4.7 vs 3.0.
And you see 3.0 vs 4.7 as a big difference? That's less than the variance between some countries year to year.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
More violent compared to mature first world democracies, less violent compared to developing countries with dysfunctional leadership.
More violent compared to SOME first world democracies.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Here's a good article that tries to get behind these hard to figure out numbers:
http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html
From that link:
Quote:
In the first large study carried out in the United States, it has been reported that 10 percent of all homicides are committed by individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other psychotic illnesses, most of whom were not being treated. The study was carried out by Jason Matejkowski, Sara Cullen, and Phyllis Solomon, social workers in the School of Policy and Practice at the University of Pennsylvania. It was published in a recent issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law.
The authors identified everyone in the Indiana state prison system who had been convicted of homicide between 1990 and 2002, a total of 1,397 individuals. The records of a random sample of 723 of these were examined, of which 518 had sufficient information to ascertain whether or not they had received a psychiatric diagnosis. Among the 518 individuals convicted of homicide, 53, or 10.2 percent, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia (n=27), other psychotic disorders not associated with drug abuse (n=14), or bipolar disorder (n=12). An additional 42 individuals had been diagnosed with mania or major depressive disorder, for a total of 95 individuals out of the 518 studied, or 18.3 percent, having a psychiatric diagnosis.
It should be noted that the study included only those individuals who committed homicides and were sentenced to prison; it did not include individuals with severe psychiatric disorders who were found to be incompetent to stand trial or not guilty by reason of inanity and therefore committed to a psychiatric facility instead of prison. The estimate of 10 percent of homicides being associated with individuals with severe, mostly psychotic, psychiatric disorders is thus a conservative estimate.
So if you use the numbers above 18.3% had some sort of mental illness (10.3% were psychotic), and these were people that were still fit for trial and the number does not include those currently in mental institutions.
And in mentioning China, I mentioned Australia and Western Europe, countries you can I hope more directly compare to the US. Again, they have a murder rate of 1 per 100,000, the US has 4.7 per 100,000
Yes, and Australia has a much higher rape percentage, you chose those places on purpose to support your side of the argument.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Nobody disagrees with this fact. What some are trying to point out is that if we compare ourselves with countries that we should be comparing ourselves with, we have a far higher murder rate and most of our murders are carried out by firearm. Should we not be trying to understand why they have a lower murder rate while having minimal firearm ownership?
I don't think anybody is denying you have a higher murder rate than some other first world nations. But is there proof that by reducing the number of firearms, this rate will go down? If the USA has a "violence problem" as you seem to suggest, then it isn't going to.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
I love it how you pick a few examples to make your point while ignoring the more pertinent examples!
You gave some examples that supported your side, so I gave a few that didn't. I find the one particularly interesting with roughly 50% firearms ownership as the USA, yet 1/4 the murder rate.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
North Korea is 5.2 compared to US 4.7 according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Well according to this:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/North-Korea/United-States/Crime
The murder rate in North Korea is 4x higher than the USA per 1 million people.
Which is also supported by this page:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/north-korea
Quote:
In North Korea, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2008: 15.26
2004: 18.907
2002: 19.50
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And I take it you agree that we are closer to the murder rates in Iraq, Afghanistan & Pakistan than to overall Western Europe rates.
I didn't bother looking those up. I found that there were a number of nations with a disproportionate percentage of firearms to murders and figured I'd leave it at that. I think there are other things in play than just the guns.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
On that subject, again you decide to pick a few small European countries. Why not the larger countries such as the UK, France & Germany? So let's go for "Europe" as a whole instead huh? America vs "Europe" is 4.7 vs 3.0.
And you see 3.0 vs 4.7 as a big difference? That's less than the variance between some countries year to year.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
More violent compared to mature first world democracies, less violent compared to developing countries with dysfunctional leadership.
More violent compared to SOME first world democracies.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Here's a good article that tries to get behind these hard to figure out numbers:
http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html
From that link:
Quote:
In the first large study carried out in the United States, it has been reported that 10 percent of all homicides are committed by individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other psychotic illnesses, most of whom were not being treated. The study was carried out by Jason Matejkowski, Sara Cullen, and Phyllis Solomon, social workers in the School of Policy and Practice at the University of Pennsylvania. It was published in a recent issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law.
The authors identified everyone in the Indiana state prison system who had been convicted of homicide between 1990 and 2002, a total of 1,397 individuals. The records of a random sample of 723 of these were examined, of which 518 had sufficient information to ascertain whether or not they had received a psychiatric diagnosis. Among the 518 individuals convicted of homicide, 53, or 10.2 percent, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia (n=27), other psychotic disorders not associated with drug abuse (n=14), or bipolar disorder (n=12). An additional 42 individuals had been diagnosed with mania or major depressive disorder, for a total of 95 individuals out of the 518 studied, or 18.3 percent, having a psychiatric diagnosis.
It should be noted that the study included only those individuals who committed homicides and were sentenced to prison; it did not include individuals with severe psychiatric disorders who were found to be incompetent to stand trial or not guilty by reason of inanity and therefore committed to a psychiatric facility instead of prison. The estimate of 10 percent of homicides being associated with individuals with severe, mostly psychotic, psychiatric disorders is thus a conservative estimate.
So if you use the numbers above 18.3% had some sort of mental illness (10.3% were psychotic), and these were people that were still fit for trial and the number does not include those currently in mental institutions.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And heat of the moment? Yeah, I'm going to get my keys, unlock my gun safe, grab my 12 gauge, put some 00 buck in the tube, go back downstairs, chamber a round, and then blow somebody away all in the "heat of the moment". Or am I more likely to grab a knife off the counter (if I'm nuts) and just stab somebody? What is more convenient?
Well according to the statistics, arguments are the leading cause of homicide and 60% of the time a firearm is the weapon used.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...e-data-table-11
BTW, just for fun, if we use the data from that link and categorize it in descending order:
Code:
Total Murder Victims: 12,664
Handguns: 6,220
Knives: 1,694
Other guns: 1,684
Other: 853
Personal weapons: 726
Blunt objects: 496
Shotguns: 356
Rifles: 323
Asphyxiation: 89
Strangulation: 85
Fire: 75
Narcotics: 29
Explosives: 12
Poison: 5
Window: 2
Shotguns and rifles, COMBINED, are less than personal weapons (hands, fists, feet), significantly less than "other guns", which is less (though not by much) than knives. Which is 2nd to handguns.
So for somebody carrying a handgun, in the "heat of the moment", yes, a handgun is most often used. Because it is on them. If they don't have a hand gun, they use a knife.
I imagine "other guns" are things like Uzi's and their ilk that gang bangers use to off each other with.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And heat of the moment? Yeah, I'm going to get my keys, unlock my gun safe, grab my 12 gauge, put some 00 buck in the tube, go back downstairs, chamber a round, and then blow somebody away all in the "heat of the moment". Or am I more likely to grab a knife off the counter (if I'm nuts) and just stab somebody? What is more convenient?
Well according to the statistics, arguments are the leading cause of homicide and 60% of the time a firearm is the weapon used.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...e-data-table-11
BTW, just for fun, if we use the data from that link and categorize it in descending order:
Code:
Total Murder Victims: 12,664
Handguns: 6,220
Knives: 1,694
Other guns: 1,684
Other: 853
Personal weapons: 726
Blunt objects: 496
Shotguns: 356
Rifles: 323
Asphyxiation: 89
Strangulation: 85
Fire: 75
Narcotics: 29
Explosives: 12
Poison: 5
Window: 2
Shotguns and rifles, COMBINED, are less than personal weapons (hands, fists, feet), significantly less than "other guns", which is less (though not by much) than knives. Which is 2nd to handguns.
So for somebody carrying a handgun, in the "heat of the moment", yes, a handgun is most often used. Because it is on them. If they don't have a hand gun, they use a knife.
I imagine "other guns" are things like Uzi's and their ilk that gang bangers use to off each other with.
Thank goodness we have the US Constitution and
the Second Amendment. Because of that people like Apollo14 will NEVER ever be able to remove our God given right to defend ourselves with the necessary force.
the Second Amendment. Because of that people like Apollo14 will NEVER ever be able to remove our God given right to defend ourselves with the necessary force.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trav
It must be to come back a dozen or more times under different user names, being that obsessive could be a sign of other problems too. Who knows.
Some people just keep coming back. And probably think they are brilliant because they can keep using new user names. But I have had to use only one user name in over 11 years. Maybe that is brilliant.
Some people are fanatically anti-gun. But in the USA the Constitution gives people the right to own guns. It would take an amendment to the Constitution to change that. Since that is not going to happen why don't the fanatical anti-gunners just give up?
How anybody can argue against improved mental health in the USA is beyond my understanding. Is that not simple common sense? But extreme anti-gun people might lack that.
There are murders in the USA for a large number of reasons. Gangs commit a lot of murders, sometimes because of drug wars. There are murders during domestic violence incidents, etc. If handguns were not possible people would find some other tool to commit murder. Obviously knives, automobiles, explosives, baseball bats, and many other things could be used.
Terrorists are committing an increasing number of murders. Some people have the courage necessary to call terrorism what it is despite political correctness. The prime minister of Canada called what happened in Ottawa terrorism. The police in New York City are calling the hatchet attack terrorism. I admire people who can tell the simple truth. If enough people do that what will the people who demand political correctness do?
And it might be possible to stop a lot of killings if people would decide to take active roles. I don't mean stepping on other people's rights. But if kids in a high school notice another kid has all kinds of crazy stuff on his/her Facebook Page or Twitter Account maybe it is time to let somebody know. If somebody is displaying bizarre behavior in a college maybe some school official should be notified. If somebody is making all kinds of threats against other people maybe it is time to report that. Yes, people have freedom of speech but threats of violence are threats of violence.
It must be to come back a dozen or more times under different user names, being that obsessive could be a sign of other problems too. Who knows.
Some people just keep coming back. And probably think they are brilliant because they can keep using new user names. But I have had to use only one user name in over 11 years. Maybe that is brilliant.
Some people are fanatically anti-gun. But in the USA the Constitution gives people the right to own guns. It would take an amendment to the Constitution to change that. Since that is not going to happen why don't the fanatical anti-gunners just give up?
How anybody can argue against improved mental health in the USA is beyond my understanding. Is that not simple common sense? But extreme anti-gun people might lack that.
There are murders in the USA for a large number of reasons. Gangs commit a lot of murders, sometimes because of drug wars. There are murders during domestic violence incidents, etc. If handguns were not possible people would find some other tool to commit murder. Obviously knives, automobiles, explosives, baseball bats, and many other things could be used.
Terrorists are committing an increasing number of murders. Some people have the courage necessary to call terrorism what it is despite political correctness. The prime minister of Canada called what happened in Ottawa terrorism. The police in New York City are calling the hatchet attack terrorism. I admire people who can tell the simple truth. If enough people do that what will the people who demand political correctness do?
And it might be possible to stop a lot of killings if people would decide to take active roles. I don't mean stepping on other people's rights. But if kids in a high school notice another kid has all kinds of crazy stuff on his/her Facebook Page or Twitter Account maybe it is time to let somebody know. If somebody is displaying bizarre behavior in a college maybe some school official should be notified. If somebody is making all kinds of threats against other people maybe it is time to report that. Yes, people have freedom of speech but threats of violence are threats of violence.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And in mentioning China, I mentioned Australia and Western Europe, countries you can I hope more directly compare to the US. Again, they have a murder rate of 1 per 100,000, the US has 4.7 per 100,000
Yes, and Australia has a much higher rape percentage, you chose those places on purpose to support your side of the argument.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Nobody disagrees with this fact. What some are trying to point out is that if we compare ourselves with countries that we should be comparing ourselves with, we have a far higher murder rate and most of our murders are carried out by firearm. Should we not be trying to understand why they have a lower murder rate while having minimal firearm ownership?
I don't think anybody is denying you have a higher murder rate than some other first world nations. But is there proof that by reducing the number of firearms, this rate will go down? If the USA has a "violence problem" as you seem to suggest, then it isn't going to.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
I love it how you pick a few examples to make your point while ignoring the more pertinent examples!
You gave some examples that supported your side, so I gave a few that didn't. I find the one particularly interesting with roughly 50% firearms ownership as the USA, yet 1/4 the murder rate.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
North Korea is 5.2 compared to US 4.7 according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Well according to this:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/North-Korea/United-States/Crime
The murder rate in North Korea is 4x higher than the USA per 1 million people.
Which is also supported by this page:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/north-korea
Quote:
In North Korea, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2008: 15.26
2004: 18.907
2002: 19.50
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And I take it you agree that we are closer to the murder rates in Iraq, Afghanistan & Pakistan than to overall Western Europe rates.
I didn't bother looking those up. I found that there were a number of nations with a disproportionate percentage of firearms to murders and figured I'd leave it at that. I think there are other things in play than just the guns.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
On that subject, again you decide to pick a few small European countries. Why not the larger countries such as the UK, France & Germany? So let's go for "Europe" as a whole instead huh? America vs "Europe" is 4.7 vs 3.0.
And you see 3.0 vs 4.7 as a big difference? That's less than the variance between some countries year to year.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
More violent compared to mature first world democracies, less violent compared to developing countries with dysfunctional leadership.
More violent compared to SOME first world democracies.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Here's a good article that tries to get behind these hard to figure out numbers:
http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html
From that link:
Quote:
In the first large study carried out in the United States, it has been reported that 10 percent of all homicides are committed by individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other psychotic illnesses, most of whom were not being treated. The study was carried out by Jason Matejkowski, Sara Cullen, and Phyllis Solomon, social workers in the School of Policy and Practice at the University of Pennsylvania. It was published in a recent issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law.
The authors identified everyone in the Indiana state prison system who had been convicted of homicide between 1990 and 2002, a total of 1,397 individuals. The records of a random sample of 723 of these were examined, of which 518 had sufficient information to ascertain whether or not they had received a psychiatric diagnosis. Among the 518 individuals convicted of homicide, 53, or 10.2 percent, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia (n=27), other psychotic disorders not associated with drug abuse (n=14), or bipolar disorder (n=12). An additional 42 individuals had been diagnosed with mania or major depressive disorder, for a total of 95 individuals out of the 518 studied, or 18.3 percent, having a psychiatric diagnosis.
It should be noted that the study included only those individuals who committed homicides and were sentenced to prison; it did not include individuals with severe psychiatric disorders who were found to be incompetent to stand trial or not guilty by reason of inanity and therefore committed to a psychiatric facility instead of prison. The estimate of 10 percent of homicides being associated with individuals with severe, mostly psychotic, psychiatric disorders is thus a conservative estimate.
So if you use the numbers above 18.3% had some sort of mental illness (10.3% were psychotic), and these were people that were still fit for trial and the number does not include those currently in mental institutions.
Did you look at ALL the countries above and below the US in the murder rate tables?
The trend is clear. Advanced countries do way better than the US and the US is amongst countries that we shouldn't be amongst.
What countries should we compare ourselves against? The largest developed democracies ie Germany, France, UK, Japan. Our murder rate is nowhere near them. 4.7 vs 1.
You can quote Greenland all you want and ignore we have a murder rate similar to Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
And ASSUME I said we should ban guns.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And in mentioning China, I mentioned Australia and Western Europe, countries you can I hope more directly compare to the US. Again, they have a murder rate of 1 per 100,000, the US has 4.7 per 100,000
Yes, and Australia has a much higher rape percentage, you chose those places on purpose to support your side of the argument.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Nobody disagrees with this fact. What some are trying to point out is that if we compare ourselves with countries that we should be comparing ourselves with, we have a far higher murder rate and most of our murders are carried out by firearm. Should we not be trying to understand why they have a lower murder rate while having minimal firearm ownership?
I don't think anybody is denying you have a higher murder rate than some other first world nations. But is there proof that by reducing the number of firearms, this rate will go down? If the USA has a "violence problem" as you seem to suggest, then it isn't going to.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
I love it how you pick a few examples to make your point while ignoring the more pertinent examples!
You gave some examples that supported your side, so I gave a few that didn't. I find the one particularly interesting with roughly 50% firearms ownership as the USA, yet 1/4 the murder rate.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
North Korea is 5.2 compared to US 4.7 according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Well according to this:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/North-Korea/United-States/Crime
The murder rate in North Korea is 4x higher than the USA per 1 million people.
Which is also supported by this page:
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/north-korea
Quote:
In North Korea, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is
2008: 15.26
2004: 18.907
2002: 19.50
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And I take it you agree that we are closer to the murder rates in Iraq, Afghanistan & Pakistan than to overall Western Europe rates.
I didn't bother looking those up. I found that there were a number of nations with a disproportionate percentage of firearms to murders and figured I'd leave it at that. I think there are other things in play than just the guns.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
On that subject, again you decide to pick a few small European countries. Why not the larger countries such as the UK, France & Germany? So let's go for "Europe" as a whole instead huh? America vs "Europe" is 4.7 vs 3.0.
And you see 3.0 vs 4.7 as a big difference? That's less than the variance between some countries year to year.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
More violent compared to mature first world democracies, less violent compared to developing countries with dysfunctional leadership.
More violent compared to SOME first world democracies.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Here's a good article that tries to get behind these hard to figure out numbers:
http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html
From that link:
Quote:
In the first large study carried out in the United States, it has been reported that 10 percent of all homicides are committed by individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other psychotic illnesses, most of whom were not being treated. The study was carried out by Jason Matejkowski, Sara Cullen, and Phyllis Solomon, social workers in the School of Policy and Practice at the University of Pennsylvania. It was published in a recent issue of the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law.
The authors identified everyone in the Indiana state prison system who had been convicted of homicide between 1990 and 2002, a total of 1,397 individuals. The records of a random sample of 723 of these were examined, of which 518 had sufficient information to ascertain whether or not they had received a psychiatric diagnosis. Among the 518 individuals convicted of homicide, 53, or 10.2 percent, had been diagnosed with schizophrenia (n=27), other psychotic disorders not associated with drug abuse (n=14), or bipolar disorder (n=12). An additional 42 individuals had been diagnosed with mania or major depressive disorder, for a total of 95 individuals out of the 518 studied, or 18.3 percent, having a psychiatric diagnosis.
It should be noted that the study included only those individuals who committed homicides and were sentenced to prison; it did not include individuals with severe psychiatric disorders who were found to be incompetent to stand trial or not guilty by reason of inanity and therefore committed to a psychiatric facility instead of prison. The estimate of 10 percent of homicides being associated with individuals with severe, mostly psychotic, psychiatric disorders is thus a conservative estimate.
So if you use the numbers above 18.3% had some sort of mental illness (10.3% were psychotic), and these were people that were still fit for trial and the number does not include those currently in mental institutions.
Did you look at ALL the countries above and below the US in the murder rate tables?
The trend is clear. Advanced countries do way better than the US and the US is amongst countries that we shouldn't be amongst.
What countries should we compare ourselves against? The largest developed democracies ie Germany, France, UK, Japan. Our murder rate is nowhere near them. 4.7 vs 1.
You can quote Greenland all you want and ignore we have a murder rate similar to Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
And ASSUME I said we should ban guns.
What most people don't want to factor into situation is that
the USA, unlike many of those other countries is NOT
a "nation" but a polyglot of different races, cultures, and
beliefs, as such there is NO cohesion or general agreement
on things that are critical to the civil functioning of a nation.
In the distant past there WAS a degree of this cohesion but now it no longer exists and will likely never return, because of this it is more important than ever for all citizens to be able to use the necessary force (and that can often be deadly) to protect ones self and family from harm. The fact is that multiKulturalism and hordes of alien immigrants from places that have absolutely NOTHING in common with western civilization are surely destroying our connection with it.
the USA, unlike many of those other countries is NOT
a "nation" but a polyglot of different races, cultures, and
beliefs, as such there is NO cohesion or general agreement
on things that are critical to the civil functioning of a nation.
In the distant past there WAS a degree of this cohesion but now it no longer exists and will likely never return, because of this it is more important than ever for all citizens to be able to use the necessary force (and that can often be deadly) to protect ones self and family from harm. The fact is that multiKulturalism and hordes of alien immigrants from places that have absolutely NOTHING in common with western civilization are surely destroying our connection with it.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Thank goodness we have the US Constitution and
the Second Amendment. Because of that people like Apollo14 will NEVER ever be able to remove our God given right to defend ourselves with the necessary force.
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
And an amendment can be repealed by people. Very, very, difficult to do. But not impossible.
Thank goodness we have the US Constitution and
the Second Amendment. Because of that people like Apollo14 will NEVER ever be able to remove our God given right to defend ourselves with the necessary force.
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
And an amendment can be repealed by people. Very, very, difficult to do. But not impossible.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
What most people don't want to factor into situation is that
the USA, unlike many of those other countries is NOT
a "nation" but a polyglot of different races, cultures, and
beliefs, as such there is NO cohesion or general agreement
on things that are critical to the civil functioning of a nation.
You mean like the US Constitution? So by your reasoning, the @nd Amendment is not the right you claimed it is.
What most people don't want to factor into situation is that
the USA, unlike many of those other countries is NOT
a "nation" but a polyglot of different races, cultures, and
beliefs, as such there is NO cohesion or general agreement
on things that are critical to the civil functioning of a nation.
You mean like the US Constitution? So by your reasoning, the @nd Amendment is not the right you claimed it is.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Thank goodness we have the US Constitution and
the Second Amendment. Because of that people like Apollo14 will NEVER ever be able to remove our God given right to defend ourselves with the necessary force.
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
Actually the Founding Fathers helped to make tangible the rights given to us by God through the US Constitution. Even IF by hook or crook removing our Constitutional Rights (which at the rate things are going in the US) is possible, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deny The People the God given right of self defense by the sword (or gun).
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Thank goodness we have the US Constitution and
the Second Amendment. Because of that people like Apollo14 will NEVER ever be able to remove our God given right to defend ourselves with the necessary force.
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
Actually the Founding Fathers helped to make tangible the rights given to us by God through the US Constitution. Even IF by hook or crook removing our Constitutional Rights (which at the rate things are going in the US) is possible, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deny The People the God given right of self defense by the sword (or gun).
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Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
What most people don't want to factor into situation is that
the USA, unlike many of those other countries is NOT
a "nation" but a polyglot of different races, cultures, and
beliefs, as such there is NO cohesion or general agreement
on things that are critical to the civil functioning of a nation.
You mean like the US Constitution? So by your reasoning, the @nd Amendment is not the right you claimed it is.
Sure it is, our problem in the USA is that the country has been nearly destroyed by an alien agenda of MultiKult and mass
immigration of peoples that have no interest in subscribing to our own White Gentile values.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
What most people don't want to factor into situation is that
the USA, unlike many of those other countries is NOT
a "nation" but a polyglot of different races, cultures, and
beliefs, as such there is NO cohesion or general agreement
on things that are critical to the civil functioning of a nation.
You mean like the US Constitution? So by your reasoning, the @nd Amendment is not the right you claimed it is.
Sure it is, our problem in the USA is that the country has been nearly destroyed by an alien agenda of MultiKult and mass
immigration of peoples that have no interest in subscribing to our own White Gentile values.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Did you look at ALL the countries above and below the US in the murder rate tables?
No, I don't need to. Your own post about Europe being 3.0 as a whole and the US being 4.7 shows that there really isn't this massively significant difference you keep harping on about.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
The trend is clear. Advanced countries do way better than the US and the US is amongst countries that we shouldn't be amongst.
You want the trend to be clear so that we can all identify with you as being "right". Luckily, since this is BITOG, we know the odds of that happening are about as good as the odd of you experiencing a terrorist attack, LOL
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
What countries should we compare ourselves against? The largest developed democracies ie Germany, France, UK, Japan. Our murder rate is nowhere near them. 4.7 vs 1.
And you think that guns are the source of this discrepancy. There are plenty of other factors in play here: Public healthcare, strong unions, less outsourcing, no Walmart....etc.
As a society, the USA is quite different from those nations based on just those few examples alone. It would be nice to make a neat and tidy comparison but unfortunately there is no country in the world that mirrors the USA in a manner which would allow that. The best we can do is take a look abroad and consider the numbers relative to the differences (note the pluralization there) between the societies. There are examples where the gun/homicide percentage doesn't make sense (I cited a few of those) when contrasted to the USA. Obviously there is more at play there. Identifying those other differences and their effects on crime would be far more productive.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
You can quote Greenland all you want and ignore we have a murder rate similar to Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Iraq has been all over the map. Remember I said the difference between the USA and Europe was less than the difference in some countries year to year? This is one of those examples:
2008: 2.05
2004: 7.346
2002: 2.90
And Iraq has a lower firearms ownership rate (31 per 100) than many European nations with lower year to year homicide rates.
Pakistan has an even LOWER firearms ownership rate (11 per 100) but with a much higher homicide trend:
2011: 7.88
2010: 7.6
2009: 7.3
2008: 7.28 10
2007: 6.4
2006: 6.2
2005: 6.1
2004: 6.2
2003: 6.1
2002: 6.2
2001: 6.5
2000: 6.2
1999: 6.6
1998: 7.4
1997: 6.9
1996: 6.9
Afghanistan? Even LOWER firearms ownership rate (4.4 per 100), yet:
2008: 2.45
2004: 3.406
Still higher than many of the European nations you cited which, to note again, have a much higher rate of personal firearms ownership.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And ASSUME I said we should ban guns.
I never said that you said we should ban guns FWIW. I just don't think we can look at this problem and say "Ah ha! It is the guns!". I don't think the numbers we have so far looked at support that. There are other factors in play.
Did you look at ALL the countries above and below the US in the murder rate tables?
No, I don't need to. Your own post about Europe being 3.0 as a whole and the US being 4.7 shows that there really isn't this massively significant difference you keep harping on about.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
The trend is clear. Advanced countries do way better than the US and the US is amongst countries that we shouldn't be amongst.
You want the trend to be clear so that we can all identify with you as being "right". Luckily, since this is BITOG, we know the odds of that happening are about as good as the odd of you experiencing a terrorist attack, LOL
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
What countries should we compare ourselves against? The largest developed democracies ie Germany, France, UK, Japan. Our murder rate is nowhere near them. 4.7 vs 1.
And you think that guns are the source of this discrepancy. There are plenty of other factors in play here: Public healthcare, strong unions, less outsourcing, no Walmart....etc.
As a society, the USA is quite different from those nations based on just those few examples alone. It would be nice to make a neat and tidy comparison but unfortunately there is no country in the world that mirrors the USA in a manner which would allow that. The best we can do is take a look abroad and consider the numbers relative to the differences (note the pluralization there) between the societies. There are examples where the gun/homicide percentage doesn't make sense (I cited a few of those) when contrasted to the USA. Obviously there is more at play there. Identifying those other differences and their effects on crime would be far more productive.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
You can quote Greenland all you want and ignore we have a murder rate similar to Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Iraq has been all over the map. Remember I said the difference between the USA and Europe was less than the difference in some countries year to year? This is one of those examples:
2008: 2.05
2004: 7.346
2002: 2.90
And Iraq has a lower firearms ownership rate (31 per 100) than many European nations with lower year to year homicide rates.
Pakistan has an even LOWER firearms ownership rate (11 per 100) but with a much higher homicide trend:
2011: 7.88
2010: 7.6
2009: 7.3
2008: 7.28 10
2007: 6.4
2006: 6.2
2005: 6.1
2004: 6.2
2003: 6.1
2002: 6.2
2001: 6.5
2000: 6.2
1999: 6.6
1998: 7.4
1997: 6.9
1996: 6.9
Afghanistan? Even LOWER firearms ownership rate (4.4 per 100), yet:
2008: 2.45
2004: 3.406
Still higher than many of the European nations you cited which, to note again, have a much higher rate of personal firearms ownership.
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And ASSUME I said we should ban guns.
I never said that you said we should ban guns FWIW. I just don't think we can look at this problem and say "Ah ha! It is the guns!". I don't think the numbers we have so far looked at support that. There are other factors in play.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
And an amendment can be repealed by people. Very, very, difficult to do. But not impossible.
The right to self defense is a god given right. A caveman didn't need a document to grant him a right to self defense to protect himself from a Saber Tooth Tiger. I don't need a document to know that if someone means me harm, I can now defend myself because of this "document". The 2nd amendment is there to ensure that the citizenry always and forever have the right to defend themselves from tyrannical government, from foreign invaders, and domestic enemies.
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
And an amendment can be repealed by people. Very, very, difficult to do. But not impossible.
The right to self defense is a god given right. A caveman didn't need a document to grant him a right to self defense to protect himself from a Saber Tooth Tiger. I don't need a document to know that if someone means me harm, I can now defend myself because of this "document". The 2nd amendment is there to ensure that the citizenry always and forever have the right to defend themselves from tyrannical government, from foreign invaders, and domestic enemies.
Originally Posted By: youdontwannaknow
Once again its a kid getting possession of the parent's killing machine. This entire household should loose gun rights permanently.
Whatever the reason may be - mental illness, video games, drugs, etc.. the common denominator is guns. By logical common sense it would be most effective to fix that one common problem instead of scrambling to fix all the several alleged causes. Yes those causes need to be fixed too but that will take a long time and it wont have an immediate effect, and an immediate remediation is desperately needed. Ask any parent who's kids are in school. I dont think it will give them even a cent worth more peace of mind knowing that now several staff at school have guns ready! What a dumb brainless suggestion.
Guns need to be banned for the general public with permits given, even for ammunition, only on very specific case by case basis. For example if you live out in the boonies and need to protect yourself from wildlife or such other threats. For hunting one gun is enough and no need for ammunition stockpile.
If you need 10 guns and a 30 round magazine to shoot a deer then you should rather stay home and find another hobby anyway.
So much fail in this post, I don't even know where to begin. The 2nd amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting, unless you are talking about hunting tyrannical govt officials.
Wouldn't you agree that the world would be a better place if not the citizenry rose up and killed off tyrannical governments such as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, ISIS, Mao, and Kim Jong-Un, etc?
THAT'S the reason the second amendment exist!!!
Once again its a kid getting possession of the parent's killing machine. This entire household should loose gun rights permanently.
Whatever the reason may be - mental illness, video games, drugs, etc.. the common denominator is guns. By logical common sense it would be most effective to fix that one common problem instead of scrambling to fix all the several alleged causes. Yes those causes need to be fixed too but that will take a long time and it wont have an immediate effect, and an immediate remediation is desperately needed. Ask any parent who's kids are in school. I dont think it will give them even a cent worth more peace of mind knowing that now several staff at school have guns ready! What a dumb brainless suggestion.
Guns need to be banned for the general public with permits given, even for ammunition, only on very specific case by case basis. For example if you live out in the boonies and need to protect yourself from wildlife or such other threats. For hunting one gun is enough and no need for ammunition stockpile.
If you need 10 guns and a 30 round magazine to shoot a deer then you should rather stay home and find another hobby anyway.
So much fail in this post, I don't even know where to begin. The 2nd amendment has NOTHING to do with hunting, unless you are talking about hunting tyrannical govt officials.
Wouldn't you agree that the world would be a better place if not the citizenry rose up and killed off tyrannical governments such as Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, ISIS, Mao, and Kim Jong-Un, etc?
THAT'S the reason the second amendment exist!!!
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I never said that you said we should ban guns FWIW. I just don't think we can look at this problem and say "Ah ha! It is the guns!". I don't think the numbers we have so far looked at support that. There are other factors in play.
Well I am glad not to have been misunderstood then!
Here are a few charts I find interesting:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
Firearms Deaths by Mode of Death for Children
Top 10 Countries - Rate per 100,000
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/
I never said that you said we should ban guns FWIW. I just don't think we can look at this problem and say "Ah ha! It is the guns!". I don't think the numbers we have so far looked at support that. There are other factors in play.
Well I am glad not to have been misunderstood then!
Here are a few charts I find interesting:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
Firearms Deaths by Mode of Death for Children
Top 10 Countries - Rate per 100,000
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
And an amendment can be repealed by people. Very, very, difficult to do. But not impossible.
The right to self defense is a god given right.
Kindly name the god, and show his/her/its words that say that, And the sources.
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Well, it isn't a God given right. It's a right given by a document written by people.
And an amendment can be repealed by people. Very, very, difficult to do. But not impossible.
The right to self defense is a god given right.
Kindly name the god, and show his/her/its words that say that, And the sources.
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